Am I correct with my understanding of this? Faith in Jesus alone = salvation
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Yes, faith must be present in order for us to “act”, but that is not the point James is emphasizing. It’s evident that James is emphasizing works as opposed to faith alone. And yes, we SHOW faith by our works, but the scriptures specifically say THREE TIMES, MAN is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS. That is word for word. Verse 24. I see you did not comment on that. It literally says we are SAVED BY WORKS. . Not our faith—us, we, man, mankind. That’s who is being JUSTIFUED BY WORKS, declared righteous by God by works, saved by works. You can talk about faith all you want to; you can IGNORE what it says about works, but it’s there and it is not going away.
What are you going to do with the word “JUSTIFIED”? You say faith “results “ in works; and works REVEAL AND PROVE faith, but James 2 uses the word “JUSTIFIES” 3 times and you have avoided that word because it means “salvationl”.It means “declared righteous”; it means forgiveness of sins. So tell me, who/what is “JUSTIFIED?” And “HOW” are they being “JUSTIFIED”?
Let’s talk about grammar (like Mailman likes to do). “Justified” is a verb phrase; every sentence with a verb MUST have a subject. So tell me, WHO is justified?? I know you know better than to say “faith” is justified. Faith doesn’t need justification. So James is not talking about justifying faith by works, James is talking about somebody being saved, justified. Who is it—faith or man? It’s man! Man is being justified. How? How is man justified, saved, declared righteous, forgiven of sins by WORKS! So says the Holy Spirit in verses 21, 22, and 24. 3 times!
And what do YOU SAY?? I quote: “James is NOT teaching one must have …works to be justified”. That’s what YOU say. Aren’t you contradicting the Holy Spirit? Talk to me about the word “justified” in James 2. Let us hear YOUR version of “who” is being justified and “How” are they being justified.
James is not emphasizing works. Look at what his original question is regarding his teaching on faith and works.
James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
He is explaining what faith is and how you can know if what you have is true saving biblical faith or whether it is a faith of your imagining. Real faith is revealed in works. James taught me the difference between when I said "I believed God's word" and when I actually "had faith in God's word". He taught me how to "put my money where my mouth is" as we say and to recognise the difference between believing truth and having that same truth working in my life which is our faith.
James goes on to explain that simply believing something to be true doesn't make it saving faith even if it is the truth that is believed. (ie the demons believe). One is justified as having saving biblical faith only if it results in works. James would say to you if you think you need to add works to your faith in order to be saved, you are sorely mistaken because your faith should produce works naturally because faith is the word working in you, it is the very nature of faith. Faith is the assurance and conviction of what is not seen Heb.11:1 Only God can provide that level of security and this He does through His Word.
Where did I say “James is NOT teaching one must have …works to be justified”. What I have been saying I think is perfectly clear. One is justified because his works prove he has faith, it isn't simply a claim to faith as obviously some had been doing in James' congregation. Jam.2:18 He really does have faith as seen in his works and it is not simply a claim to having faith. There is no way to have the works of God apart from faith.
James is not teaching on how one is saved, but how to recognise genuine saving faith.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. How will I know this is true for you (or me)? Our works will justify our words.
What change and the change came before what? Luke 3: 2. the word of God came unto John. The word of God is not referring to Jesus, but the actual words of God which He spoke by filling John with His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the angel of His presence in Isaiah 63: 9-10. Angel because He can be sent, and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. It is through His Holy Spirit that the Father can enter the being indwelled in order to communicate His will and empower the being indwelled to perform His will. The Father speaks to the being indwelled as well as through the being indwelled . Jesus kept on saying that the words that he spoke were not his but the Father's, who sent him. John 7: 16, John 12:49, John 14: 10. Also, the Holy Spirit does not speak his own words. What he hears, he speaks. John 16: 13. Jesus says the same thing about himself. John 12: 49-50, John 3: 34. God sends John to preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. John did not know who the coming Savior was, so God told him to baptize with water and that the coming Savior would come to his water baptism. He would recognize the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit when he saw the Holy Spirit descend like a dove and abode upon him. He would then be able to declare him to Israel. John 1: 31-34.
I didn't understand "so the change came first..", but everything else is spot on.
the change of mind, the repentance. the change from a state of unbelief to belief.What change and the change came before what? Luke 3: 2. the word of God came unto John. The word of God is not referring to Jesus, but the actual words of God which He spoke by filling John with His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the angel of His presence in Isaiah 63: 9-10. Angel because He can be sent, and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. It is through His Holy Spirit that the Father can enter the being indwelled in order to communicate His will and empower the being indwelled to perform His will. The Father speaks to the being indwelled as well as through the being indwelled . Jesus kept on saying that the words that he spoke were not his but the Father's, who sent him. John 7: 16, John 12:49, John 14: 10. Also, the Holy Spirit does not speak his own words. What he hears, he speaks. John 16: 13. Jesus says the same thing about himself. John 12: 49-50, John 3: 34. God sends John to preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. John did not know who the coming Savior was, so God told him to baptize with water and that the coming Savior would come to his water baptism. He would recognize the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit when he saw the Holy Spirit descend like a dove and abode upon him. He would then be able to declare him to Israel. John 1: 31-34.
I didn't understand "so the change came first..", but everything else is spot on.
its not that hard.
they were not saved because John baptized them, if this is what you think, we have some problems
This is where you ERROR. James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Hence, FAITH (rightly understood in Jesus Christ) ALONE.
It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
Adstar is able to answer the question.. But sometimes it is hard having the motivation to answer the question when the one asking it seems to have no willingness to listen to the answer.. But lets preceded..
Lets get to definitions.. Baptism:
Baptism1 : The ceremony carried out. usually in churches where a person is partially of fully submerged in water alone with appropriate statements of faith and words from the one performing the ceremony..
Baptism2 : The coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell a person who believes Jesus and has Faith in the atonement that Jesus secured for that person on the cross..
Baptism1 is a work.. A work of men.. and does not secure one salvation
Baptism2 is a work of The Holy Spirit upon those who believe in the Way God has made for them to be Redeemed..
Paul said::
(1 Corinthians 1:14-17) "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; {15} Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. {16} And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. {17} For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
Now it is clear to anyone who read Acts and the rest of the letters that detail the travels and ministry of Paul that many hundreds or even thousands of people received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through Paul.. So Paul was not talking about Baptism2 in the above scripture.. He was talking about the physical water baptism that he says he never did except for the few occasions He mentioned..
This also alludes back to the words of John the baptist::
(Matthew 3:11) "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
So it is clear by scripture that the actual Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a Work of God and not the work of men
It is also clear that water baptism is a work of men that has only ever been a symbolic representation of the REAL baptism of the Holy Spirit..
Therefore if anyone says that physical water baptism, that being Baptism1 in the definitions i gave is essential to one being saved then they are DEAD Wrong...
The Holy Spirit says, “You see then
that A MAN ( not faith) IS JUSTIFIED ( saved) BY WORKS…” verse 24. I can’t tell you more/ or different than what God says.
A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS. Word for word what God says. You simply REFUSE to BELIEVE it. QUOTE: “MAN IS SAVED THROUGH FAITH AND NOT BY WORKS.” Second paragraph of your post, first sentence.
God said, “MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS”
James 2:24
YOU said, “ MAN IS SAVED…NOT BY WORKS.”
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You aren’t having any problem UNDERSTANDING this. You just don’t BELIEVE what God says and the Holy Spirit has written. YOU say that is not TRUE. What are you doing but saying the Holy Spirit lied. Be careful. Is that not blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that the “unforgivable “ sin? I am not slandering you. I am representing you accurately.
If you believe “MAN IS SAVED BY WORKS” like James 2:24 says, then say so, so we will all know you believe it. But since you DENY it, what are we suppose to believe—that you don’t believe the Holy Spirit spoke the truth. I don’t see we have any other choice. You either believe it or you don’t. Which is it?
One scripture: Colossians 2:12- the Holy Spirit calls water baptism a “WORKING OF GOD.”
Baptism in water IS NOT a work OF man and this verse PROVES it.
Ephesians 4:4 says there is ONLY ONE baptism. NOT TWO as you are saying.
And Acts 4:12 says it’s baptism in the name of Jesus, which is water baptism.
Give the scripture…
1) that says Holy Spirit baptism is in the name of Jesus
2) Give the scripture that says Holy Spirit baptism “SAVES” you.
Here is the scripture that says…
1) water baptism is in the name of Jesus. Acts 19:2-5
2) water baptism “SAVES” you—1 Peter 3:21
If you can’t back up what you are saying with scripture, you cannot be teaching the “TRUTH.”
I believe God and James. I just don't believe your eisegesis. We are justified "accounted as righteous" by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and justified "shown to be righteous" by works. (James 2:21,24)
The Greek word for justified has more than one meaning, depending on the context.
The Greek word for justified is "dikaioo":
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context of James 2:24.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Dikaioo Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS)
For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: CRYSTAL CLEAR.
Again, James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
Man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24) *Perfect Harmony* So, the harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
I perfectly understand this. You don't. I absolutely believe what God says, and the Holy Spirit has written. I just don't believe your eisegesis.
What I shared with you is TRUE. The Holy Spirit did not lie. You simply misinterpreted James 2:24 and it's because you erroneously teach salvation by works. Maybe it's you who needs to be careful. You need to examine yourself and stop pointing fingers at me. Twisting the scriptures and perverting the gospel could be construed as blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
The unforgivable sin is in regard to the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is mentioned in Matthew 12:22-32 and Mark 3:22-30. This case of blasphemy which is unpardonable is a specific one. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was casting out demons in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that Jesus had an unclean spirit and casts them out by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons. (Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:30). Jesus was specific about what they did to commit "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" and these Pharisees who committed this unforgivable sin were not believers. What is unpardonable in general is the state of continued unbelief. (John 3:18)
No, James is NOT saying that man is saved by works in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). James is saying that man is shown to be righteous by works. Context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
Again, I believe the Holy Spirit spoke the truth. I just don't believe that you properly interpreted the truth. Sadly, I can see that your CoC indoctrination runs deep.
CONTINUED..
That's what your eisegesis says but that's not what Colossians 2:12 says. Now read the rest of the verse - ..through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Water baptism is accomplished by man.
Even though there are baptisms (plural) in scripture. (Matthew 3:11) There is only one baptism that saves and places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.
Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 for the word drink(s) and see the connection with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” Water baptism followed. (Acts 10:48)
In verse 2, Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10). It did signify their inclusion into the church.
Keep reading! In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
*By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.
Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.
Right back at you. Please let me know if you have any questions.
"Can anyone withhold water that these cannot be baptized into salvation?" was a rhetorical question which answer should otherwise be evident.
Even if someone dried up all the water on earth in an attempt to keep anyone from being saved, no one can be prevented from being baptized into salvation through faith by the power of God. Water is not the power of God.
Even if someone dried up all the water on earth in an attempt to keep anyone from being saved, no one can be prevented from being baptized into salvation through faith by the power of God. Water is not the power of God.
You quote scriture without actually quoting the actual scripture.. Here i will quote 1 Peter 3: 21 the correct way::
(1 Peter 3:21) "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
Now having just read the actual verse where does it mention WATER Baptism ???????????? Nowhere.. I understand now why you quote scripture without actually quoting the actual verse...
Now lets quote the other verses the proper way:
(Acts 19:2-6) "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. {3} And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
So they had received the baptism of John the Baptist IN WATER.. But had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.. Showing to one and all that WATER baptism does not avail one of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit!!! Does this support your belief that water baptism is needed to be saved?? NOPE.. It actually undermines your position.. You quoted scriptures that undermines your own belief.. Now lets continue..
(Acts 19 4-6){4} Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. {5} When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. {6} And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Again where is any talk of Paul baptizing them in WATER????? None what so ever.. It only says Paul laid his hands upon them so that they could receive the Holy Spirit.. No water mentioned at all...