Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

You also changed the meaning by employing the word toward instead of unto. Unto has the connotation of fulfillment, which maintains the actual meaning of the verse. The power of God is exercised and the result is belief.

Nope. Quit editing scripture to suit your dogma.

Strong's Greek: 4991. σωτηρία (sótéria) -- Salvation

Cognate: 4991 sōtēría (from 4982 /sṓzō, "to save, rescue") – salvation, i.e. God's rescue which delivers believers out of destruction and into His safety. See 4982 (sōzō).

 

[Rufus]

You know.

Why would I ask if I knew? Your evasive answer tells me YOU don't know. You don't even understand what you're asking.

 

[Rufus]

He set ALL prisoners free...... Free to choose The Lord Jesus Christ.

The Horrible part?.......You KNOW this. I would not want to be in your shoes.

Prove your assertion from scripture. Give me a verse wherein it teaches that God set all prisoners of sin w/o exception free.

 

[cv5]

Why would I ask if I knew?

You are kidding right? Like we do not actually already know.
And have come to know over and over again by the same experience that never fails to confirm the same.

 

[Magenta]

Prove your assertion from scripture. Give me a verse wherein it teaches that God set all prisoners of sin w/o exception free.

They don't even have a verse articulating free will...

But they get to choose what color of socks they wear so there is that...

If they choose to wear socks at all that is.

Although admittedly that has no bearing on the eternal fate of one's soul. I would be curious to know how the ability to choose such mundane things got mixed into and overthrew what Scripture explicitly articulates of fallen man.

 

[rogerg]

Nope. Quit editing scripture to suit your dogma.

Strong's Greek: 4991. σωτηρία (sótéria) -- Salvation

Cognate: 4991 sōtēría (from 4982 /sṓzō, "to save, rescue") – salvation, i.e. God's rescue which delivers believers out of destruction and into His safety. See 4982 (sōzō).

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What you don't comprehend is that Christ is the gospel and the gospel is Christ. So, when you say the gospel is God's power to save, you are actually saying, whether you realize it or not, that Christ is God's power to save, not man. Were it by man, scripture would instead have stated that man is the power of God to save because salvation would solely be by man and his choices, not exclusively by the gospel as the verse so states. That is, whoever has the power to save, has it totally without needing anything external to itself make it happen, otherwise, IT ISN'T the power to save.
Based upon your post above, you seem not to realize this. Instead, you should be making Christ essence, centerpiece and foundation of all of your beliefs, upon whom, you build everything else. Without that, your interpretations are corrupt.

 

[cv5]

What you don't comprehend is that Christ is the gospel and the gospel is Christ. So, when you say the gospel is God's power to save, you are actually saying, whether you realize it or not, that Christ is God's power to save, not man. Were it by man, scripture would instead have stated that man is the power of God to save because salvation would solely be by man and his choices, not exclusively by the gospel as the verse so states. That is, whoever has the power to save, has it totally without needing anything external to itself make it happen, otherwise, IT ISN'T the power to save.
Based upon your post above, you seem not to realize this. Instead, you should be making Christ essence, centerpiece and foundation of all of your beliefs, upon whom, you build everything else. Without that, your interpretations are corrupt.

Give a guy a fish and he thinks it's a scorpion.....

 

[Cameron143]

You often attempt to establish a premise with other than facts. "unto" is an archaic word not used much anymore, and it has more range of meaning than the meaning you're attempting to establish as your premise. I'm translating the Greek word "eis" used in the Text.

Your last statement is not Rom1:16. The power inherent in God's Gospel confronts every hearer. The result can be belief for salvation or unbelief and no salvation.

The power of the gospel is the truth about the person and work of Christ as revealed by the Father...blessed art thou...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven...and upon this rock...the revelation of Christ by the Father...I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH...
This is the power of the gospel and the way the church is built.

 

[HeIsHere]

The power of the gospel is the truth about the person and work of Christ as revealed by the Father...blessed art thou...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven...and upon this rock...the revelation of Christ by the Father...I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH...
This is the power of the gospel and the way the church is built.

Of course once again not about the process of salvation, ordo salutis.

 

[Cameron143]

Talking more doesn’t prove your logic - it just means you kept talking. Shifting to another verse isn’t a conclusion; it’s a pivot away from an argument that wasn’t holding

It's a reinforcement of scripture, not a pivot. You can't talk about free will and salvation with simply one verse.

 

[Rufus]

Right. There are determinists populating this thread that have stated very clearly that babies and children are condemned to the lake of fire without remedy. The belief is that they were intentionally created evil by God for this very reason. Chronister calls it the day care in hell doctrine.

Adults too of course. Everybody in fact. Literally everybody.......other than THEMSELVES.

I wonder if coddling such a horrific doctrine negatively affects the mind, soul and spirit?
I mean just listen to Sproul Jr. That was some kind if bizarre diatribe regarding that 10 year old girl.

On what judicial basis would God save "babies and children"? I guess "all" doesn't truly mean all w/o exception in Rom 3:23?

 

[Rufus]

So........The people who hear it for 50 1/2 years are shut out?

You were perishing and heard foolishness for 50 years.......NOTHING excluded you like you exclude others.

Is it not the Lord who supernaturally opens eyes and ears? Oh wait...almost forgot: God's healing grace is effectual only in physical healings not spiritual ones, right? Salvation for you FWers is merely a natural act of human-generated "volitional belief" (to borrow Studier's heretical phrase).

 

[Rufus]

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

The FWers eyes must have glazed over when they read the above...and then immediately asked, "Has God really said...?"

 

[lrs68]

On the basis that the Holy Ghost directed the Prophet Isaiah to claim there's an AGE of accountability. If someone is not that AGE then how can they be accountable?

 

[Rufus]

Your appeal to Isaiah 55:11 does not prove irresistible grace.

“so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” – Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)

You interpret it to mean "particular, unique, individual salvation yet the text makes no such claim.

It in no way implies that those who believed were irresistibly determined by Him to do so.

He succeeds because people are persuaded by the Good News by the power and truth inherent in the message.

So, God's purposes/plans can indeed fail in spite of what the prophet said? BTW, the above text is UNQUALIFED, for God placed no limits on his success.

Moreover, there's nothing in the text that teaches God's success is contingent on human response. Nice bit of eisegesis, though...

 

[studier]

The power of the gospel is the truth about the person and work of Christ as revealed by the Father...blessed art thou...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven...and upon this rock...the revelation of Christ by the Father...I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH...
This is the power of the gospel and the way the church is built.

The rock in Matt16:18 is the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, personally revealed by God to Peter. This truth about Jesus was foundational, and, as Paul explains in 1Cor3, remains the foundation. Since then, God saves through the publicly proclaimed gospel, which is the power of God toward salvation, benefiting everyone who is believing. Belief or unbelief is a volitional human response to the gospel’s inherent power.

 

[Rufus]

Right. The Gospel is power. And it is never empty.

Salvation is equal privilege and equal opportunity for all.

It's not just for @Magenta @Cameron143 @Rufus @rogerg @NightTwister

The picture is WAYYYYYYYYYYY bigger than your little bunch.

Like this is it "WAYYYYYYYYYY bigger":

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sang a new song:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."?
NIV

Of course, the passage does not say that Christ purchased ALL men for God -- so, there's that little FWer wrinkle in there. But even so, Rev 7:9 says God saved so many, no one could count the number.

Why are you ignorant of the scriptures?

 

[Rufus]

The rock in Matt16:18 is the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, personally revealed by God to Peter. This truth about Jesus was foundational, and, as Paul explains in 1Cor3, remains the foundation. Since then, God saves through the publicly proclaimed gospel, which is the power of God toward salvation, benefiting everyone who is believing. Belief or unbelief is a volitional human response to the gospel’s inherent [but ineffectual] power.

FTFY!

 

[Edify]

Romans 15:2 Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification.
Something's been missed.

 

[studier]

It's a reinforcement of scripture, not a pivot. You can't talk about free will and salvation with simply one verse.

Reinforcing Scripture at some point is meaningful, but only if it builds on the original point. Shifting to another verse without resolving the logic of the first one isn’t reinforcement, it’s avoidance.