Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

Well you still have not demonstrated that regeneration is separate from eternal life such that God gives one and not the other and belief is somewhere in the middle, I guess.
Your assertion remains very weak... kinda like this,

Of course I did. 2 different things. To regenerate is to make alive. Eternal life is knowing God and Christ.

 

[Magenta]

What the free will camp assumes with no supporting texts and contrary to a plethora of Scriptures.

 

[NightTwister]

I never stated understanding the Greek language was sufficient means to ensure a person's salvation.

Yet, you suggested that it's needed to properly understand scripture. Why would people who properly understand scripture not get saved? Especially since scripture says people refuse the gospel because they don't understand it.

 

[Magenta]

Yet, you suggested that it's needed to properly understand scripture. Why would people who properly understand scripture not get saved? Especially since scripture says people refuse the gospel because they don't understand it.

We actually had a Greek scholar member who said that very thing, that the gospel message could
not be understood if you did not know Greek. I was gob smacked when she said it. Just blown away.

Momentarily, that is .

Still, being told that by a member, it was proclaimed to the board at large... you don't forget.

Because it is such a shocking departure from the truth.

 

[Magenta]

So? Are you suggesting that this changes the estate of the natural man?

It is a multi-level denial... part of her "gotcha" game playing.

 

[cv5]

That's because...

Deut 29:4
4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
NIV

Standard judgement protocol. Perfectly consistent in Scripture.

So can you demonstrate to us @Rufus where God schemed/forced/coerced/bullied anyone here to UNBELIEVE against their will?
That is the old Calvinist trope right? God pre-determining those who will not believe and damning them before they were ever born or ever give any OPPORTUNITY for salvation?

Heb 3:17
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

Heb 3:18
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

 

[HeIsHere]

Yet, you suggested that it's needed to properly understand scripture. Why would people who properly understand scripture not get saved? Especially since scripture says people refuse the gospel because they don't understand it.

Yes, it is needed to properly understand some parts of scripture, that does not mean each believer has to be fluent in Koine Greek or

Hebrew, but it does mean that there need to be people who are experts so that the writing of people like Augustine, Calvin, Sproul and

Piper and the people who concocted the Canons of Dort can be refuted USING sound hermeneutics, logic, moral reasoning,

epistemological, practical, theological coherence and context (which includes strong knowledge of the original language).


As for you second sentence which verse, because most likely it is not the Good News which is in view?

 

[HeIsHere]

Of course I did. 2 different things. To regenerate is to make alive. Eternal life is knowing God and Christ.

You need to use scripture btw, to show they are separate (key concept) and they occur (time) separately and belief is in between.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

False.

Nope.

You said ... They always stop their ears and suppress the truth.

in response to what lrs68 said ... But they stopped their ears, correct? That means if they listen they most likely will be saved. So a choice was made.

I questioned your claim and asked you to acknowledge what is written in Gen 3:22.

Man can know good and not be able to perform it.

All acknowledge that it is God Who "performs" salvation.

The issue is do all "always stop their ears and suppress the truth" ... and according to Rom 1:16-19, not all "always stop their ears and suppress the truth".

What you fail to acknowledge is the natural man is hostile to God

if all are hostile to God there would be no unbelievers sitting in church pews.

and cannot receive spiritual things, yet have him in this estate acting in subservience to God and comprehending spiritual things and engaged in spiritual activity. That's simply impossible.

Belief of the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe is the first step in "comprehending spiritual things and engaged in spiritual activity" ... and belief of the gospel of Christ is not "simply impossible" (Matt 19:26).

I am in agreement that natural man comes to God after God reaches out to him or her ... iow, no one comes until God reaches out. And I believe God reaches out to each and every person more than once or twice over a lifetime. Whether we recognize or acknowledge God reaching out first is another matter ... but He does make the first move.
.

 

[HeIsHere]

if all are hostile to God there would be no unbelievers sitting in church pews.

Good point, such a misapplied verse almost laughable.

 

[Magenta]

You need to use scripture btw, to show they are separate (key concept) and they occur (time) separately and belief is in between.

You do not use Scripture to prove free will. There are no such verses. In fact your theology employs the use
of contradicting and outright denying what Scripture explicitly articulates. You have quite a double standard
going for you, but I am not affirming that it works. Just letting you know it can be seen for the sham it is.

 

[Cameron143]

You need to use scripture btw, to show they are separate (key concept) and they occur (time) separately and belief is in between.

John 17:3 defines eternal life. Regeneration is defined in Ephesians 2:1.

Notice how Ephesians 2:1 comes before Ephesians 2:8? You should read the verses in between as well. Notice how we were dead in our sins and walking according to the ways of the world, but God quickens and we then are saved?

 

[HeIsHere]

So? Are you suggesting that this changes the estate of the natural man?

Take a look at Acts 7 and see what the natural man did armed with that information. They can even condone it for religious reasons. But their behavior revealed their hostility and lack of spirituality. I'll grant that this is a worst case scenario, but it remains impossible for those of a hostile mind and spiritually dead to comply with God and engage in spiritual activity.

The estate of natural man promoted by Reformed doctrine includes moral inability to respond positively,

(exercising belief/faith which Christ Jesus clearly states is the condition)

to the truth of the Good News from birth, yet no where does scripture state this is part of natural man, I mean unless you are going

pluck verses out of their context and not bother to really understand the over arching theme of the letter.

Cause that is the right way to understand a text where a thesis is being developed. , actually double !!

 

[Magenta]

The estate of natural man promoted by Reformed doctrine includes moral inability to respond positively,

(exercising belief/faith which Christ Jesus clearly states is the condition)

to the truth of the Good News from birth, yet no where does scripture state this is part of natural man, I mean unless you are going

pluck verses out of their context and not bother to really understand the over arching theme of the letter.

Cause that is the right way to understand a text where a thesis is being developed. , actually double !!

He can neither receive not comprehend the things you claim he decides to believe.

In your theology that makes sense. He is blind to the truth and refuses to come into the light but you
have him seeing and coming into the light, all with the use of his God-hating incurably wicked heart.

This is why you pooh-pooh what the Bible says of man. And what makes you a Pelagian heretic.

He's not such a bad guy in your theology. You fashion him after your self-exalting self.

 

[Cameron143]

Good point, such a misapplied verse almost laughable.

Or, God is already at work in them. We don't dismiss biblical truth because we see something that appears contradictory. It is biblically true that the natural man is hostile in his mind against God. Further, there are plenty of unbelievers running churches. Because you go to church or do religious activities, an unbeliever gets taken out of the category of...hostile to God? Y'all are big on verses. Perhaps show that verse.

 

[cv5]

So? Are you suggesting that this changes the estate of the natural man?

The "natural man" Reformer myth is the most soundly debunked dogma of them all. Dozens if not hundreds of times on this thread alone. And the one you recycle endlessly regardless in an effort to keep this zombie doctrine flailing around.

The term "natural man" occurs ONE TIME in all the Bible, and does not speak to anything like "total inability" or inherent incapacity to believe.

What the passage DOES say is perfectly consistent with my last few posts:
WILLFUL rejection of unassailable truth from God brings its reactionary judgement.
Which was one of the greatest (and most tragic) OT themes in all the Bible.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Num 14:22
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Num 14:23
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

 

[Cameron143]

The estate of natural man promoted by Reformed doctrine includes moral inability to respond positively,

(exercising belief/faith which Christ Jesus clearly states is the condition)

to the truth of the Good News from birth, yet no where does scripture state this is part of natural man, I mean unless you are going

pluck verses out of their context and not bother to really understand the over arching theme of the letter.

Cause that is the right way to understand a text where a thesis is being developed. , actually double !!

Why are you classifying everything. Just answer and respond to what I write. Answer my question please.

 

[Cameron143]

The "natural man" Reformer myth is the most soundly debunked dogma of them all. Dozens if not hundreds of times on this thread alone. And the one you recycle endlessly regardless in an effort to keep this zombie doctrine flailing around.

The term "natural man" occurs ONE TIME in all the Bible, and does not speak to anything like "total inability" or inherent incapacity to believe.

What the passage DOES say is perfectly consistent with my last few posts:
WILLFUL rejection of unassailable truth from God brings its reactionary judgement.
Which was one of the greatest (and most tragic) OT themes in all the Bible.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Num 14:22
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Num 14:23
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

If it's been debunked so frequently and with such ease, why hasn't someone been able to do so here today?

 

[cv5]

That's ???because...???
Deut 29:4
4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
NIV

You lose again @Rufus . Nothing but consistency from you buddy.

Num 14:22
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Num 14:23
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

 

[cv5]

If it's been debunked so frequently and with such ease, why hasn't someone been able to do so here today?

Since it has why do you then not believe it?
Thats your dilemma buddy.
And a dire one at that. Extremely dire.