Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

If a man is physically dead, he must be made physically alive to experience and engage with physical reality. Likewise, if an individual is spiritually dead, he must be made spiritually alive in order to experience and engage in spiritual reality. It's not a tough concept.

I think it is a very very very very very very very tough concept for them to wrap their minds around.

In fact their whole self-exalting theology is wrapped around their inability to grasp that concept.

 

[HeIsHere]

You completely missed the point, as usual. If understanding the original Greek is all that's required, why wasn't every Greek saved?

That was not my point at all.

 

[Cameron143]

I thought you were referring to the other post.
Well, one someone adheres to the central tenets of "calvinism" I would say they are in the that "school"

Even though you know different, as evidenced in your post and by your own admission. And you do so so you don't actually have to deal with truth.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 1:16 says plainly:
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

Notice the WHO!!
It does NOT state to whom I bestow belief.

You cannot see it because who are so accustomed to reading in what is not there.

So yes the statement is a distortion and sad I might add.

"The gospel is not the power of God for unbelievers."

The Gospel is for unbelievers who believe the message of it, put place their faith in Christ Jesus for salvation and receive the gift and become believers!!

Nor does it say how anyone came to belief. But you can't see that because you are so accustomed to reading in what is not there.

 

[NightTwister]

That was not my point at all.

Exactly.

 

[lrs68]

So we can dispense with the notion that you agree with "some" of reformed doctrine. That was my only point to this particular discussion. Have a nice weekend.

Yes Sir, and you have a good weekend as well

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 1:16 says plainly:
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

Notice the WHO!!
It does NOT state >>>>>> to whom I bestow belief.

You cannot see it because who are so accustomed to reading in what is not there.

So yes the statement is a distortion and sad I might add.

"The gospel is not the power of God for unbelievers."

The Gospel is for unbelievers who believe the message of it, put place their faith in Christ Jesus for salvation and receive the gift and become believers!!

I could have phrased it better, but the point remains: the gospel is only the power of God to those who come to believe. No power is exercised towards those who do not come to believe.

 

[Rufus]

BELIEVE AND THOU SHALT LIVE!

not >>>> Live and thou shalt believe.

Really?

John 11:26
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV

And,

Ps 115:11
11 You who fear him , trust in the LORD —
he is their help and shield.
NIV

Only God-fearers can trust in the Lord, and this grace is unilaterally bestowed upon God's covenant people.

And,

Ps 145:19-20
19 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him ;
he hears their cry and saves them.
NIV

Of course, the Fear of the Lord leads to life and is a fountain of life to all who possess it.

 

[HeIsHere]

Exactly.

I never stated understanding the Greek language was sufficient means to ensure a person's salvation.

All this tells me is you cannot really defend your dogma but instead resort to little games of gotcha over and over again.

 

[lrs68]

No one was ever saved by keeping the law...by works of the law shall no flesh be justified...Galatians 2:16.

So, the experience of witnessing tongues was enough. Nothing need be done about their hostility towards God, their spiritual deadness, or the estate of their hearts?

I know the Law wasn't what saved anyone but we know those under the Law prior to Jesus are saved now.

And I am using what we do know about the Acts 2 events and what we know how those things are relevant to unbelievers because we know why God uses them [like Tongues for unbelievers] and such. Luke painted a complete picture so it's easy to see how and what took place by knowing how Paul explained things and then connecting them to what Luke details.

 

[Jordon]

Romans 1:16 says plainly:
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

Notice the WHO!!
It does NOT state >>>>>> to whom I bestow belief.

You cannot see it because who are so accustomed to reading in what is not there.

So yes the statement is a distortion and sad I might add.

"The gospel is not the power of God for unbelievers."

The Gospel is for unbelievers who believe the message of it, put place their faith in Christ Jesus for salvation and receive the gift and become believers!!

It's a better way to go using the word bestowed, as its quite often translated as given.

There kind of the same meaning but the real truth of the matter is even love gets bestowed.

 

[HeIsHere]

I could have phrased it better, but the point remains: the gospel is only the power of God to those who come to believe. No power is exercised towards those who do not come to believe.

Romans 1 states otherwise which @reneweddaybyday has gone over and over maybe go back and catch up.


“But to all who receive him, who believe in His name, He gave the right to become children of God…” (Jn. 1:12, ESV)

 

[Magenta]

I could have phrased it better, but the point remains: the gospel is only the power of God to those who come to believe. No power is exercised towards those who do not come to believe.

It strikes me as odd that she likes to not only so frequently butcher that verse but also the fact she is quoting a verse where Paul says he is not ashamed, when she tries to shame others who believe what the Bible actually says and affirm the power of God and the fact that He keeps promises He made in Scripture. Anyone trying to follow the lack of logic presented in the whole of their theology which is full of holes haha well, I hope they do not have vertigo because all the loop-de-loops one must go through trying to follow the big picture of what they present could cause issues.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 1 states otherwise which @reneweddaybyday has gone over and over maybe go back and catch up.

“But to all who receive him, who believe in His name, He gave the right to become children of God…” (Jn. 1:12, ESV)

The natural man does not receive... let's hear your denial of this for the umpteenth time. Or not.

I believe what the Bible says.

 

[Magenta]

you cannot really defend your dogma but instead resort to little games of gotcha over and over again.

I thought that was your favourite game.

 

[Rufus]

1Cor2:14

@Cameron143 was recently loading logic about the natural man, creating his own Premise which forced a Conclusion and challenging another re: the logic. @HeIsHere called him on it. It's easy to create a Premise that forces a Conclusion. The answer to that challenge was simply to replace the Premise with another one that we see FROM the Bible.

In 1Cor2:14 the word being translated as "natural man" is "psuchikos". Here's the basic definition from the BDAG Lexicon:

pertains to the life of the natural world and whatever belongs to it, in contrast to the realm of experience whose central characteristic is pneuma (spirit), natural, unspiritual, worldly​

​

Honestly, I think this whole category of words could use more work. A more typical translation might be "soulish" but even then, this is only somewhat correct. If we look at references like this, we can see that the word is more pointedly speaking of "breath". If you've never done the study, it's very difficult IMO to fully understand what constitutes a man and there is extensive overlap between spirit and soul for example.

In physics there is much talk about "entanglement". There seems to be more and more theoretical discussion about the concept of man being an entanglement between the physical and non-physical - the brain and the soul - the brain and the spirit and the body.

When it comes to psuchikos from psuchē, in my experience it's best just to see if and how God may define or explain the word in Scripture. I think He does the most with it in Jude. Under the beginning assumption that Jude and Paul may think similarly about the word, I'm starting where we seem to get the most information. Then I'll track the word and see what else we're told about it elsewhere. In the end I'd like to know more precisely what we're dealing with in 1Cor2:14 re: the psuchikos man - for now the soulish man:

Jude’s Description of the ψυχικοί (psuchikoi - plural of psuchikos - soulish men – v.19)

1. Ungodly people (asebeis) – v. 4, 15, 18
   1. Irreverent toward God, lacking devotion.
2. Pervert the grace of God into sensuality – v. 4
   1. Twist grace into a license for immorality.
3. Deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ – v. 4
   1. Refuse Christ’s authority.
4. Cause divisions (apodiorizontes) – v. 19
   1. Set up boundaries, fragment the community.
5. Do not have the Spirit – v. 19
   1. Clear statement: Spirit-less.
6. Grumblers (goggustai) – v. 16
   1. Habitual complainers against God or others.
7. Fault-finders / malcontents (mempsimoiroi) – v. 16
   1. Dissatisfied, blaming their lot.
8. Walk according to their lusts – v. 16, 18
   1. Conduct ruled by desires, not by God.
9. Speak arrogantly – v. 16
   1. Use inflated words of pride.
10. Flatter others for the sake of advantage – v. 16
    1. Manipulate through praise to gain benefit.
11. Mockers (empaiktai) – v. 18
    1. Scoff at God and His truth.
12. Follow the way of Cain – v. 11
    1. Like Cain, showing hatred and unbelief.
13. Rush for profit into Balaam’s error – v. 11
    1. Driven by greed, like Balaam.
14. Destroyed in Korah’s rebellion – v. 11
    1. Share in Korah’s arrogant rejection of God’s appointed leaders.
15. Examples of judgment given in history (applied to them) – v. 5–7
    1. Israel’s unbelief, angels who left their domain, Sodom’s immorality.
16. Hidden reefs in your love-feasts – v. 12
    1. Dangerous presences within the fellowship, unseen threats.
17. Shepherds who feed only themselves – v. 12
    1. Self-serving leaders.
18. Clouds without water – v. 12
    1. Empty, promising refreshment but giving none.
19. Autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted – v. 12
    1. Barren, lifeless, and judged.
20. Wild waves of the sea – v. 13
    1. Chaotic, foaming up their shame.
21. Wandering stars – v. 13
    1. Misleading lights, destined for darkness.
22. For whom the blackest darkness has been reserved forever – v. 13
    1. Their final destiny: eternal judgment.

I will tell you that I do have an inclination from much personal study in the Word mainly in the Greek, that #1, 3, 5 tell us the majority of the issue. I'll go through other references to psuchikos as I have time.

Here's a novel idea that would make your verbose word salad above unnecessary: Natural Man = earthly [dead] man without the Spirit of Life within him. See how simple that was?

 

[Magenta]

Here's a novel idea that would make your verbose word salad above unnecessary: Natural Man = earthly [dead] man without the Spirit of Life within him. See how simple that was?

They love love love to strip words of their true meaning so they fit better with how they have been programmed to think.

By the way I have been meaning to design a panel using verses you gave the other day on the fear of God...

But other panels keep coming out instead LOL

 

[cv5]

If a man is physically dead, he must be made physically alive to experience and engage with physical reality. Likewise, if an individual is spiritually dead, he must be made spiritually alive in order to experience and engage in spiritual reality. It's not a tough concept.

Its tough for some alright.

Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Uuuhhmm hum.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

But you've missed some thing important the chapter before

Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”
24 The Lord replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the Lord, or he will break out against them.”
25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

So only moses was allowed to up by the lords command

Ex 19:3-8 tells us that God reminded the children of Israel that He had brought them out of Egypt with His mighty hand ... that they were to obey His voice ... and the people said "all that the LORD hath spoken we will do".

Ex 19:9-12 tells us that God set a boundary for the people (vs 12) because He wanted the people to hear His Word when He spoke to Moses (vs 9).

Ex 19:16 tells us that the people trembled (were terrified) because there were thunderings and lightenings, a thick cloud, the voice of the trumpet.

Ex 19:17 tells us the people stood at the nether part ... iow, they did not approach to the boundary set ... they stood far away ... they could not hear the Word of God spoken to Moses as God desired in vs 12 – they could only hear the thunderings.

So the children of Israel did not do "all that the LORD hath spoken" ... they did not approach to the boundary set by God.

When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”
Out of fear the people obeyed,

what you call an outer expression of faith

you call it "an outer expression of faith" ... I call it terrified of God, sad to say ... they were sorely afraid of the God Who led them out of Egypt with His mighty Hand, Who fed them manna, Who gave them water from the Rock ... just as is revealed above.

They would not even come close to the boundary God allowed. They stood afar off ... far away from the mount. As stated in Ex 20:19 they told Moses "Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die" ... a complete turnaround from "all that the LORD hath spoken we will do".

Apart from one recording in the whole of the old t where one expresion of faith was counted as righteousness. Just one

and who might that "one" be?

You know the point to this was out of all the people enslaved in Egypt God chose only one person.

Moses is a type ... a foreshadowing of Messiah ... the Lord Jesus Christ.
.

 

[Rufus]

How laughable. It is your ilk who continuously label things and force labels upon people. And it's because you want to dismiss arguments out of hand rather than deal with truth. And nowhere is this more apparent than when dealing with the subject of the natural man.

For the record, ascribing to Christ the glory for every aspect of salvation and not man actually entirely exalts Christ.

I wonder how these passages exalt Reformed tradition:

Rom 11:36
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
NIV

Or,

1 Cor 1:30-31
30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God — that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
NIV

Or,

Col 3:11b
...but Christ is all , and is in all.
NIV

Or,

Col 1:12
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light
NIV