Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

The term "Roman concrete" is not in there either, but Jesus was walking on it every day.

Yes, but He didn't build His doctrine from it.

 

[Magenta]

cv5 left off the "neither can he know them" part. Meaning, that it is completely beyond natural man's power and ability to give to himself.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 2:14 is one of the favorite verses for the FWer to rewrite, saying it does not mean what you think!

Then we are told, natural man is only mentioned once, as if regeneration does not happen to the natural man remaking him into a spiritual man, the one who can actually receive and comprehend what the unregenerated man cannot. This is a core concept within Christianity but they wish to dismantle it as if it were not. Are we to believe that the natural man who has now been gifted comprehension and comes to believe still remains in the dark as far as understanding is concerned? Sometimes what they present is completely laughable.

 

[Rufus]

The Church Fathers were not Calvinist.
And neither should you or anyone else be of that ilk.

BTW.....it's actually better defined as the Reformed TRADITION. And a lot of heavyweight Churches buy into it.

Fortunately, I am not the least afflicted, as I actually know better. Lucky me huh?
Well.....luck and thousands of hours of Bible lectures.

You must have snoozed through those "thousand of hours of Bible lectures", otherwise what could account for your ignorance on luck -- which is a big fat nothing since it doesn't exist.

 

[Magenta]

I wouldn't be surprised if this religious racism mob at work here are private messaging each other.

I'm glad you can handle it, but I feel our time is just being wasted here.

Scripture may be wasted on the FWer but there are others reading along who
no doubt come to a deeper understanding of what is really happening here,
and what any true discussion is about, since many wrongfully assume that
having any kind of choice is what is under view, and not what Scripture says of man.

 

[rogerg]

1 Cor 2:14 is one of the favorite verses for the FWer to rewrite, saying it does not mean what you think!

Then we are told, natural man is only mentioned once, as if regeneration does not happen to the natural man remaking him into a spiritual man, the one who can actually receive and comprehend what the unregenerated man cannot. This is a core concept within Christianity but they wish to dismantle it as if it were not. Are we to believe that the natural man who has now been gifted comprehension and comes to believe still remains in the dark as far as understanding is concerned? Sometimes what they present is completely laughable.

That's their story and they're sticking to it - no matter what.

 

[Rufus]

Accepting God’s will doesn’t erase free will—it demonstrates it.

But it doesn't demonstrate the efficacy of his grace by which one believes the gospel. The difference isn't with God, remember?

 

[Rufus]

studier said:


Imagine the mind that red X's this Scripture about the convicting/convincing ministry of the Spirit and the power of God's Word to overcome volitional unbelief.

Nice satanic THEORY you have there, bunky. I didn't know man can be saved by "volitional" belief. My bible tells me that we must believe in our hearts. You do excel at doing the devil's work though...I give ya that. He is the original master at twisting God's word, and you are living proof that the apple doesn't fall far from its rotten tree from which no good fruit can be had.

 

[Magenta]

But it doesn't demonstrate the efficacy of his grace by which one believes the gospel. The difference isn't with God, remember?

They knee-cap God's power and efficacy while pretending to be the one upholding it.

 

[Magenta]

Nice satanic THEORY you have there, bunky. I didn't know man can be saved by "volitional" belief.
My bible tells me that we must believe in our hearts. You do excel at doing the devil's work though...
I give ya that. He is the original master at twisting God's word, and you are living proof that the apple
doesn't fall far from its rotten tree from which no good fruit can be had.

Yeah, that whole post of theirs showcased their dishonesty.

And they do not buy into what Jesus said about it being impossible for good fruit to come from a bad tree.

All part and parcel of the Pelagian heretic's handbook.

Selective application of metaphors, that does not mean what you think, you have taken that verse out of context, etc.

 

[HeIsHere]

Scripture is clear, faith is NOT meritorious and precedes regeneration.

Faith is responding to and depending on another's work, it the acknowledgment that God can do what one cannot. There is no boasting in this.

“But to him that works not, but believe on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 4:5

• John 3:15 – That whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
• John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• John 3:36 – He that believe on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believe not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abide on him.
• John 5:24 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hear my word, and believe on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
• John 6:47 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believe on me hath everlasting life.

Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise”.

Clearly the order is hearing the gospel, believing on Christ, and receiving the seal [regeneration] of the Holy Spirit of promise.

Regeneration preceding faith is a man made doctrine and attempts to usurp God's clear plan/order of salvation.

 

[Magenta]

“But to him that works not, but believe on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

The ungodly is not someone who already believes.

John 3:15 – That whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Does not tell us who comes to belief or how.

https://ref.ly/John 3.36;kjv1900?t=biblia

John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Does not tell us who comes to belief or how.

John 3:36

– He that believe on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believe not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abide on him.

Does not tell us who comes to belief or how.

https://ref.ly/John 3.36;kjv1900?t=biblia

John 5:24 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hear my word, and believe on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Does not tell us who comes to belief or how.

 

[Rufus]

Paul says they were “walking in sins” and “following disobedience”—that’s separation from God, not corpses who can’t disobey.

That's not what Lk 1:77-78 teaches. You lie by omission by concealing important data in the passage and reading your pet presuppositions into it instead:

Luke 1:68, 72-74, 77-79
68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has come and has redeemed HIS people....

72 to show mercy to our fathers
and to remember his holy covenant,
73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
and to enable us to serve him without fear...

Luke 1:77-79
77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
78 because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
79 to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace.
NIV

Context does actually count for something...

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise”.

Who hears? His sheep. Not the goats or the unregenerated person with no comprehension, for whom the gospel
message is foolishness and the Truth hidden. The one who hears is the one to whom Jesus reveals the Father.
But you deny this. You not only deny this, you mock and scoff at the idea of it, and claim it makes God unfair.

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

 

[cv5]

Well, this is probably a waste of time, but here is what GW says regarding the doctrine of election (DOE) in Romans 1-11:

A systematic study of the DOE might begin well by interpreting a proof-text that seems to be the fountainhead of the TULIP dogma, namely Romans 9:10-24, in the context of the rest of relevant Scripture in Romans regarding salvation/election (s/e), which is Romans 1-11:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.

19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.

20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.

21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.

22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.

23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).

24. Romans 7:1-6 describes s/e in terms of a wife’s remarriage after the death of her husband, saying that Christians have been released from the dead letter of the law so that they may serve God in the new way of the Spirit.

25. In Romans 7:7-25 Paul describes s/e in terms of struggle between what a person’s conscience wants to do and what his sinful nature causes him to do until he is rescued by Christ.

26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.

27. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul says that those who love God were foreknown and “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son”, which is akin to what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4-14, that before creating the world God chose or predestined those sinners “in Christ” to be blameless sons and receive the Holy Spirit.

28. Romans 8:31-39 elaborates on the previous point by saying that there is nothing that can separate “we” (who reflect God’s love per v.28) from Christ’s love (but Heb. 10:26-36 indicates one exception).

29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).

30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.

31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).

34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.

35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles,

and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.

40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.

Excellent work thanks.
Bookmarked under the title:

"doctrine of volition-election (DOVE) in Romans"

 

[Rufus]

Maybe you'll like this one better.

Luke 1 speaks of God’s mercy in Christ. Forgiveness proclaimed to “His people” only becomes salvation when received by faith. There’s no wiggle room for a faithless salvation.

But God's people were always saved in God's eyes in eternity since they only has He ever known.

But it's refreshing to see you finally concede that "His people" doesn't consist of the world in the distributive sense. IOW, this Lukian passage is not teaching that God came into the world to save each and person w/o exception. He came to save only his covenant people -- to whom, "coincidentally" the New Covenant promises were made. This Lukian passage addresses God's PURPOSE for sending his Son into the world.

 

[Cameron143]

Scripture is clear, faith is NOT meritorious and precedes regeneration.

Faith is responding to and depending on another's work, it the acknowledgment that God can do what one cannot. There is no boasting in this.

“But to him that works not, but believe on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 4:5

• John 3:15 – That whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
• John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• John 3:36 – He that believe on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believe not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abide on him.
• John 5:24 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hear my word, and believe on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
• John 6:47 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believe on me hath everlasting life.

Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise”.

Clearly the order is hearing the gospel, believing on Christ, and receiving the seal [regeneration] of the Holy Spirit of promise.

Regeneration preceding faith is a man made doctrine and attempts to usurp God's clear plan/order of salvation.

Ephesians 1:13 isn't the indwelling of the Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit of promise. This is the same Spirit of promise of Acts 1 that Jesus told the disciples to wait for. It is also the baptism spoken of by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11 wherein Jesus baptizes believers with the Holy Spirit. And it's purpose is clear from the verse...to seal. In other words, to authenticate to the believer that what has happened to them is of God. It is performed by Jesus.
This is in contrast to the indwelling of the Spirit which places the believer into the body of Christ as per 1 Corinthians 12:13. This is not the work of Jesus, but the work of the Holy Spirit.

Not understanding scripture leads to error.

 

[Rufus]

Maybe you'll like this one better.

Luke 1 speaks of God’s mercy in Christ. Forgiveness proclaimed to “His people” only becomes salvation when received by faith. There’s no wiggle room for a faithless salvation.

Nor is there any "wiggle room" for salvation outside of God's chosen, covenant people. Christ came to fulfill the oath his Father made to Abraham -- and to all of Abraham's spiritual descendants (Lk 1:72)!

 

[HeIsHere]

Ephesians 1:13 isn't the indwelling of the Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit of promise. This is the same Spirit of promise of Acts 1 that Jesus told the disciples to wait for. It is also the baptism spoken of by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11 wherein Jesus baptizes believers with the Holy Spirit. And it's purpose is clear from the verse...to seal. In other words, to authenticate to the believer that what has happened to them is of God. It is performed by Jesus.
This is in contrast to the indwelling of the Spirit which places the believer into the body of Christ as per 1 Corinthians 12:13. This is not the work of Jesus, but the work of the Holy Spirit.

Not understanding scripture leads to error.

Going off into a tangent are we, ...

Still does not provide evidence of regeneration prior to personal faith.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 1:13 isn't the indwelling of the Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit of promise. This is the same Spirit of promise of Acts 1 that Jesus told the disciples to wait for. It is also the baptism spoken of by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11 wherein Jesus baptizes believers with the Holy Spirit. And it's purpose is clear from the verse...to seal. In other words, to authenticate to the believer that what has happened to them is of God. It is performed by Jesus.
This is in contrast to the indwelling of the Spirit which places the believer into the body of Christ as per 1 Corinthians 12:13. This is not the work of Jesus, but the work of the Holy Spirit.

Not understanding scripture leads to error.

For them the truth of Scripture is laughable. They prefer their philosophically based self-exalting precept taught as doctrine instead.

 

[cv5]

Scripture may be wasted on the FWer but there are others reading along who
no doubt come to a deeper understanding of what is really happening here,
and what any true discussion is about, since many wrongfully assume that
having any kind of choice is what is under view, and not what Scripture says of man.

"deeeeeeper understanding"

Thats what all the elitist Gnostics say.