Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3 v 23). There is no one who does not sin (from 1 Kings 8 v 46). No one living is righteous before You (from Psalm 143 v 2). If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1 v 8). Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.” (John 8 v 34) And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed (John 3 v 19-20). The heart is incurably wicked (Jeremiah 17 v 9). What is evil? Sin is evil. Stop sugar coating it. All men sin, and commit evil in the sight of God. There are none good, no, not one! A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

 

[Magenta]

The passage you state doesn't mention you have free will.

It just mentions you have a choice.

This is a mistake many make, in conflating being able to make choices, with having a will that is free.
We see it a lot, like with Edward, and many of these nay-sayers are also Pelagian heretics. I saw a post
where you mentioned how evil people can be, not sure which one or where it is now, but largely this
incurable wickedness of the human heart which Scripture definitely teaches, and it is with the heart
that one believes, is very much minimized by the free will crowd, to the point where some rewrite
Scripture verses so they say what they want them to instead of what they actually do, like saying only
atheists choose to sin and are slaves to sin, even as they behave in some of the most reprehensible ways imaginable.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[decipher]

Is it hard to understand? From our perspective we exhibit "free will". From God's perspective everything is going as planned. Who knows the mind of God? Since He knows the future, this life we live is like a rerun for Him. According to His Justice, all humanity is condemned because their motivation for living is love of self before love of God. If He condemns all humanity, He would be merciless. If He saves everyone, there would be no justice in His kingdom and disobedience would run rampant. His only choice is to save a few of His choice. That is when you get baptized in the name of the Father by His granting you repentance for your sins so that you turn to Him for forgiveness. He then leads you to the knowledge of the forgiveness of sins through faith in His Son's death on the cross. Jesus is the only human who was perfect because he loved His Father and obeyed Him unto death. He wasn't supposed to die, so that in a sense, life is owed to him. He gives this life to those whom the Father chooses. The life that He gives is His Holy Spirit which in Isaiah 63: 9-10 is referred to as "the angel of His presence". Angel because it can be sent, and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. The Holy Spirit acts as a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled in order to communicate, speak through, and empower to do His will. Our reality is in the mind of the Father. He is the invisible Almighty God who is everywhere at once, can do anything, create out of nothing, knows what everyone is thinking and feeling, knows everything, transcends time, and has no beginning. A being that has always existed must be creating many other realities. He is the Father of all realities, and ours is just one of them. In our reality He places a living, thinking, feeling, being with his own will in it and calls him His Son. The Father interacts with our reality through His Holy Spirit which is the presence and power of God the Father. He fills His Son with His Holy Spirit so that the Father resides in His Son's being. The Son then becomes the image of the invisible God because the Son loves the Father and shows his love through obedience. Together, the Father through His Son, and for His Son, creates everything that exists in our reality. Because the Father loves His Son, He puts all creation under the Son's feet which makes His Son Lord of our reality. That would make the Son Lord and God of our reality but the Father is the Lord and God of all realities including His Son's.
When Jesus ascended up to heaven after he lived, died, and rose, he went to get glorified. That means that the Father was going to give him a glorified spiritual body made up of those who get baptized with the Holy Spirit by him. It is through this Holy Spirit that both Father and Son can enter our beings to change our motivation for living from love of self to love of God first and all others as we love ourselves. It is this Holy Spirit that connects us and we become one with the Father and Son.
I thank God for changing me by controlling my will by changing it to His. Jesus said that his bread was to do the Father's will. Isn't that what we should all be praying for, to do His will and not ours. Those on the outside say we are being forced because their wills don't align with God's. Those on the inside appreciate that God the Father and Son have entered their beings to assist them in the choices they make in their lives.

 

[Magenta]

Is it hard to understand? From our perspective we exhibit "free will". From God's perspective everything is going as planned.

Some of us are are discussing what the Bible says of man. Not what philosophy
or humanism says, or what people want to think aside from what the Bible says.

People making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of obeying God or submitting to God, being a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing it in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue and not really relevant.

This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favour of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated.

Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge. They teach as doctrine the precepts of men.

 

[Jordon]

I think I told you I have a number of untrustworthy people on ignore?

So this thing you have said, at odds for quite some time? No. Perhaps she continues to lie about me and
falsely accuse me of things as she has done from the time she entered this thread not too very long ago,
but for those very same reasons, I do not engage. I am not interested in such exchanges.

ok no worries magenta, i feel people have been unreasonable here to you , I understand how your feeling, I feel the same when these things happen,
With some people I've decided never to speak with them again.

Being at odds ends with people is just a saying, it doesn't mean your at fault or that you've been at odds ends with her before she was with you

I honestly don't know the history between you and her, I just felt with what was being said that these kinds of comments don't normally happen straight away.

Some kind of underlying issue has to have caused it.

Maybe its Got something to do with this denomination argument that keeps getting suggested here, and what we talked about a few days ago. because some of the comments I've read already from others, it seems certain denominations are just hated by some here, for what reason I don't know. it probably stems from people arguing to much, but in my research I see being against free will is seen as some kind of calvinist belief only, which is ridiculous, if you ask me, , but I didn't think it was appropriate to suggest you think of men as evil to much, which could paint a picture as if you where some kind of man hater, not that I'm saying that was her intention just that's how people could end up thinking

I can't see that personally with all the kind comments you've made many times that I've noticed to me and other men here.

I don't think anything bad of you, I hope that enough for you to accept I never meant anything bad about you personally, sorry if my post made you think this,

Bye for ñow.

 

[Magenta]

ok no worries magenta, i feel people have been unreasonable here to you , I understand how your feeling, I feel the same when these things happen,
With some people I've decided never to speak with them again.

Being at odds ends with people is just a saying, it doesn't mean your at fault or that you've been at odds ends with her before she was with you

I honestly don't know the history between you and her, I just felt with what was being said that these kinds of comments don't normally happen straight away.

Some kind of underlying issue has to have caused it.

Maybe its Got something to do with this denomination argument that keeps getting suggested here, and what we talked about a few days ago. because some of the comments I've read already from others, it seems certain denominations are just hated by some here, for what reason I don't know. it probably stems from people arguing to much, but in my research I see being against free will is seen as some kind of calvinist belief only, which is ridiculous, if you ask me, , but I didn't think it was appropriate to suggest you think of men as evil to much, which could paint a picture as if you where some kind of man hater, not that I'm saying that was her intention just that's how people could end up thinking

I can't see that personally with all the kind comments you've made many times that I've noticed to me and other men here.

I don't think anything bad of you, I hope that enough for you to accept I never meant anything bad about you personally, sorry if my post made you think this,

Bye for ñow.

No worries, Jordon, and when I speak of the incurable wickedness of the human heart I am simply repeating what Scripture says, but also with understanding of the human condition. Many here do not accept what Scripture says along these lines, and it makes them Pelagian heretics. They reject what Jesus said, what Paul said, and what other prophets and apostles said and wrote. They actually rewrite verses so they can claim they say what they want them to say instead of what they actually do say. They will claim universal axioms are taken out of context. They ascribe to the unregenerated man qualities and characteristics and abilities that only the spiritual man possesses, and otherwise contradict and outright deny many many verses, all so they can cling to their vain self-exalting precept which they teach as doctrine even though it has zero Biblical support. And you re right, that man's inability is not an exclusive teaching from Calvinism, but these heretics are not really interested in the truth of the matter after all. They want to believe man is free against all the verses that speak against such, and that he is not such a bad guy after all. You may have also noticed that they also scream a lot against God's sovereignty. All in all it is quite disturbing how much Scripture they throw over.

 

[Jordon]

No worries, Jordon, and when I speak of the incurable wickedness of the human heart I am simply repeating what Scripture says, but also with understanding of the human condition. Many here do not accept what Scripture says along these lines, and it makes them Pelagian heretics. They reject what Jesus said, what Paul said, and what other prophets and apostles said and wrote. They actually rewrite verses so they can claim they say what they want them to say instead of what they actually do say. They will claim universal axioms are taken out of context. They ascribe to the unregenerated man qualities and characteristics and abilities that only the spiritual man possesses, and otherwise contradict and outright deny many many verses, all so they can cling to their vain self-exalting precept which they teach as doctrine even though it has zero Biblical support. And you re right, that man's inability is not an exclusive teaching from Calvinism, but these heretics are not really interested in the truth of the matter after all. They want to believe man is free against all the verses that speak against such, and that he is not such a bad guy after all. You may have also noticed that they also scream a lot against God's sovereignty. All in all it is quite disturbing how much Scripture they throw over.

that's why I said to renewed, you shouldn't let it bother you when we talk about what evil men do, well not just men but women to.

Because like you say where only confirming what is written in scripture, but I also have understanding to in why people do the evil they do, but when people hear the word evil they take it way to personally.

Even know where saved if we don't get led of the spirit as in seek the spirit for guidance where capable of acting out if character lets just say that. Rather than go on about what we could do or say.

But for the people immature in christ the meat of the word can come a cross as to harsh, it's not until they mature that there mind can be change, that's normally when idealism takes over there though process and the rebellious heart kicks back in, God will know there heart, we can' kinda know in part but not fully what God has layed on anyone's heart unless we talk,

It's mainly man's prideful nature that causes the biggest issues, it takes a long time to break through that heart of stone for some.

But I have seen through showing acts of kindness even to men stuck in a mean nature, they can change.

I've even done this myself, I've actually felt sorry for people stuck in a mean nature. And helped them rid themselves of there bitterness.

And it's a sight to behold, sometimes not always pleasant, but I find humour works well, and even calling them a mean old grumpy steptoe or Scrooge works well.

 

[decipher]

that's why I said to renewed, you shouldn't let it bother you when we talk about what evil men do, well not just men but women to.

Because like you say where only confirming what is written in scripture, but I also have understanding to in why people do the evil they do, but when people hear the word evil they take it way to personally.

Even know where saved if we don't get led of the spirit as in seek the spirit for guidance where capable of acting out if character lets just say that. Rather than go on about what we could do or say.

But for the people immature in christ the meat of the word can come a cross as to harsh, it's not until they mature that there mind can be change, that's normally when idealism takes over there though process and the rebellious heart kicks back in, God will know there heart, we can' kinda know in part but not fully what God has layed on anyone's heart unless we talk,

It's mainly man's prideful nature that causes the biggest issues, it takes a long time to break through that heart of stone for some.

But I have seen through showing acts of kindness even to men stuck in a mean nature, they can change.

I've even done this myself, I've actually felt sorry for people stuck in a mean nature. And helped them rid themselves of there bitterness.

And it's a sight to behold, sometimes not always pleasant, but I find humour works well, and even calling them a mean old grumpy steptoe or Scrooge works well.

John 13: 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[Edward429451]

Yep you don't have free will if your saved you've been bought for a price.

Because its his life his soul, that was stolen from him.

Before the fall his life his soul was stolen from him, his life and his soul belonged to him,
,

So it's all about him, The father is God, He has the right to do has he pleases with his life that lives in you.

Fear the the one who can cast the soul to hell or heaven.

As at the end of your life one of those Two things will happen.

No amount of any free will, you think you have will change what is going to happen.

And not one single person in a fallen state can change the outcome by themselves alone by themselves.

There all in need of a saviour, who will is win his life back. Not your life but his life.

You are approaching this from an entirely different perspective than others talking and I have to agree with you. God created us for His good pleasure and our lives are not our own. But we do have the ability to say no if one could be that dumb!

 

[studier]

Funny how the phrase "free will" doesn't appear in any of my literal translations -- or for that matter in the NIV or even in any of my paraphrases. The closest any of the translations come is "I lay it down voluntarily" or "I lay it down of my own accord

"voluntarily" in the Oxford Dictionary is defined as "of one's own free will or accord.

Here's Websters 1828: VOL'UNTARILY, adverb [from voluntary.] Spontaneously; of one's own will; without being moved, influenced or impelled by others.

If you'd like to challenge the translators of the NET Bible, here's a list.

Would you really want to argue about Jesus Christ having free will? I'd think even you would stop short of that. But then again...

 

[studier]

right ... which is why I believe some folks insist that just because the usage in chapter 1 relates to the gospel, then all uses must relate to the gospel.

There is a transition from the gospel (the milk of the Word) to the meat of the Word at 1 Cor 2:6. The milk of the Word is something we should desire our whole lifetime on this earth (1 Pet 2:2) ... but once we have matured past the pablum stage, it is the meat of the Word we need to chew on and digest and put into practice. God gave us His Word so we would grow from spiritual infancy to maturity as we await full adulthood ... which will occur when we see Him at His coming and we are fully conformed to the image of Christ.





I do not believe the gospel is in view in 1 Cor 2:14. There is a transition from the milk of the Word to more weightier matters at 1 Cor 2:6.

Belief in the gospel is the first step and as we feed on the milk of the Word we grow from newborn babe in Christ to more mature believer at which point we are able to feed on more weightier matters. The Word of God will sustain us throughout our whole lifetime on this earth and we must not neglect feeding daily on it ... the Word of God nourishes that new creation God placed within each new born again one ... the new man ... if the new man is kept weak through malnourishment (neglect of God's Word), the old man remains strong ... doesn't matter how long a person has been born again, if he or she is not feeding on the Word of God, he or she will remain in spiritual childhood ... and by feeding on God's Word, I mean not mixing God's Word with doctrines of men.
.

FWIW, I think you've put this section of Scripture to rest. Also, FWIW, I've posted a very similar analysis of it. It's not that difficult to see all the statements made about advanced teaching. All these abusers of interpretation do is ignore correction and continue recirculating the same errors. They evidence a complete lack of care what the Word of God actually says and a complete inability to explain Scripture in context. There is something severely wrong with the mindset.

Last FWIW for now, I'm enjoying your work.

 

[studier]

Have you ever considered the words in Genesis 3 ... that man knows both good and evil (Gen 3:22)? a lot of folks focus only on the evil without giving one single thought to the fact that God tells us mankind knows both good and evil. Why do some only focus on the evil without considering what did God mean that mankind can know good???

precisely.

 

[studier]

no one can define free will many have tried, well at least not in a biblical sense, only in an Oxford dictionary sense

If true, then why should we be using an undefinable phrase and arguing about something no one agrees on the meaning of?

From one side it's obviously being used pejoratively and as nothing more than a cuss word. But that seems to be the enjoyable part - using words and phrases open to whatever definition one chooses at any given time.

The problem is that it may be one of the most important concepts in the Bible and one of the main things that God designed into us to make us in His likeness.

In this light it makes sense that it is attacked as it is.

 

[studier]

There's no point in making your assertions of human free will being a reality based on this one passage.

Define free will from the bible.

Do you have a definition for free will?

Are you saying something you can't define doesn't exist?

 

[studier]

yes but is doesn't say you have free will

You sound like you know what it means, yet you say it's undefined.

 

[cv5]

Some of us are are discussing what the Bible says of man. Not what philosophy
or humanism says, or what people want to think aside from what the Bible says.

People making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of obeying God or submitting to God, being a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing it in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue and not really relevant.

This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favour of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated.

Sounds like a super-determinist conspiracy theory meant to destroy the intended power and nullify the intended glory of the gospel message. Thats the "pre-birth sovereign lottery" effect.

[Rom 1:16 KJV]
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[1Co 15:1 KJV]
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

[1Co 15:2 KJV]
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

And yes, the gospel message itself has the power to do what it is meant to do. Despite your incessant denials.

 

[Rufus]

instead of ripping out one snippet from the post, BillyBob, read the whole ... I'll bold the part you appear to be concerned about:

where did I state that Adam was "the sinless innocent"? Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God told Adam what would be the consequence of eating from the tree (Gen 2:17). Adam knew he would die ... we just don't know if Adam knew the full ramification of what it was to die.​

​

Adam left his Father and joined his wife (Gen 2:24).​

​

Did Adam make the right decision? does it matter at this point in time?​

​

Adam did what he did ... God knew what satan would do in beguiling Eve ... God knew what Eve would do ... God knew what Adam would do ... God is the One Who established His plan of redemption in eternity past ... we are just living through that plan and we either believe what God wrote in Scripture (or Scripture a faithful believer preaches) or we don't ... whatever decision we make determines where we will spend eternity future.​

​

there are only two choices we have when Scripture is presented to us ... believe ... or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.​

​

Deuteronomy 30:19-20a I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days ...​

it was no surprise to God when satan beguiled Eve

it was no surprise to God when Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

it was no surprise to God when Adam ate and became one flesh with his wife

it was no surprise to God when you or I believed

it was and is (nor will it be in the future) no surprise to God when the whosoevers believe

it is no surprise to God when those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness do not believe

... none of this proves that God withholds anything from those who end up in the lake of fire ...
.

God knew, God knew, God knew. He knew because he decreed the Fall -- just like He knew that Pharaoh would not let the ancient Hebrews leave Egypt because God decreed to harden the king's heart.

 

[studier]

And yes, the gospel message itself has the power to do what it is meant to do

precisely.

Add the convicting ministry of the Spirit and where's the issue?

 

[cv5]

God knew, God knew, God knew. He knew because he decreed the Fall -- just like He knew that Pharaoh would not let the ancient Hebrews leave Egypt because God decreed to harden the king's heart.

God never "decreed" the fall, as that would make Him inherently evil. But He did judge the incident afterwards.

A simple cause and effect concept that anyone other than a super-determinist could not fail to comprehend.

 

[cv5]

instead of ripping out one snippet from the post, BillyBob, read the whole ... I'll bold the part you appear to be concerned about:

where did I state that Adam was "the sinless innocent"? Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God told Adam what would be the consequence of eating from the tree (Gen 2:17). Adam knew he would die ... we just don't know if Adam knew the full ramification of what it was to die.​

.​

​

Somebody tell @BillyBob that he is missing a key takeaway:​

Adam was agonizing on a plan TO SAVE HIS BRIDE!​

​

2 Adams​

2 gardens​

2 brides​

​

The super-determinists fail to "see" this.​

​

[Isa 44:18 KJV]
They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see G3708 the kingdom of God.

ὁράω horáō, hor-ah'-o; properly, to stare at (compare G3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:—behold, perceive, see, take heed.