Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

I take it that you are an ancient Hebrew Jew!

I am Jewish that can trace our Ancestry before 70 AD.

 

[Rufus]

Scripture never actually says that Adam's will was free. He was able to make choices as is anyone... but he was of the natural world.

James 1 verses 14-15; 1 John 2 verse 16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .

What you stated above is technically true -- however it is equally as true that "very good" Adam's mind, soul and heart were not encumbered by a sinful nature, which means he was free FROM internal sinful influences. There was no corruption in his heart until after he sinned. Then and only then, we can see Adam heaping sin upon sin after he fell. He could no longer help himself.

 

[cv5]

Rescuing, saving grace is the only Cause necessary to produce faith. Faith is not man-made or produced by man, nor is the existence of faith determined in temporal reality. Grace is given to God's elect in eternity -- before anyone was born -- before anyone did anything good or bad. Did God consult with you in eternity to get your permission to "force" you to believe?

Ok. So now we know that you declare that the gospel message is faith in GRACE.

Is that what all of your compatriots think to be true?

 

[Magenta]

What you stated above is technically true -- however it is equally as true that "very good" Adam's mind, soul and heart were not encumbered by a sinful nature, which means he was free FROM internal sinful influences. There was no corruption in his heart until after he sinned. Then and only then, we can see Adam heaping sin upon sin after he fell. He could no longer help himself.

I have been wanting to explore this idea of Adam's connection to the natural world for some time, the natural world being what he was made of, and the stated source of Adam's desire of the flesh, eyes, pride of life etc, and so why he sinned, would you agree? I do totally understand and agree with what you are saying about how he was not encumbered with sin the way we are, for he was not as yet a child of wrath, which we are born as by nature despite the hue and cry of free willers who proclaim otherwise, as it is their wont to contradict what Scripture explicitly states... and God certainly knew that was going to be Adam's choice... But anyway, the whole idea of, first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual... Adam did have access to the Tree of Life but chose death over that. I do wonder if he feared death, for later, fear of death is given as the reason for man's bondage to sin, and if so, why not just eat of the Tree of Life?

 

[cv5]

why would you no longer want a person to be Calvinist ?

I can't read your view points in scripture if you don't specify exactly what point you where trying to make me see.

I can only guess your point is based upon mankind having a free will to overcome by his own will, which you believe disproves keys points of Calvinism

Such people who believe these things ended up taking Gods authority into there own hands, there is numerous passages on this, a famous one being when Moses parted the sea through the aid of God.

But really just another key point here is disproving points of view on calvinism based on free will, is really not wise because you could end up disproving way to much.

Because you end up making Calvinism the target to disprove anything and everything, when really mankind in it's fallen state does not really have any free will, which goes way back way before Calvinism even came into existence. The core tennants are more important.

Hhhmmm. Well this thought had crossed my mind:

[Jhn 7:17 NKJV] 17 "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or [whether] I speak on My own [authority].

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God is known through personal revelation. Jesus said so. Knowing He exists and having personal experience with Him are two completely different things. Do you understand this? I do have to wonder, since some here deny personal revelation is necessary. But then they contradict and deny other things Jesus said as well...

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

you leave off the invitation from the Son:

Matthew 11:27-30 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


vs 28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

He tells us to come ... take ... learn ... this is where we have to decide if we will do as He tells us. If we do not come ... take ... learn ... He will not bring us along to reveal the Father.

I love these verses ... Jesus invites all ye that labour and are heavy laden ... no exclusivity there (cough cough "elect") ...

He gives us rest ... when He tells us to take my yoke upon you ... this is not to add to our burdens, but it is that He helps us with our burdens ... He gives us rest, He upholds us, He leads us through the trying times of this life so that we are able to victoriously endure. He has already successfully navigated the stormy seas of this life. He will guide us through to safe harbor where we shelter from the storms of this life.


And He tells us in vs 20 those He will not reveal the Father to:

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not

The Son will not reveal the Father to those who do not repent.


It cannot be emphasized enough that we are not to rip verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them ... Scripture is very clear as to those whom the Son will reveal the Father ... and those to whom the Son will not reveal the Father.
.

 

[cv5]

you leave off the invitation from the Son:

Matthew 11:27-30 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


vs 28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

He tells us to come ... take ... learn ... this is where we have to decide if we will do as He tells us. If we do not come ... take ... learn ... He will not bring us along to reveal the Father.

I love these verses ... Jesus invites all ye that labour and are heavy laden ... no exclusivity there (cough cough "elect") ...

He gives us rest ... when He tells us to take my yoke upon you ... this is not to add to our burdens, but it is that He helps us with our burdens ... He gives us rest, He upholds us, He leads us through the trying times of this life so that we are able to victoriously endure. He has already successfully navigated the stormy seas of this life. He will guide us through to safe harbor where we shelter from the storms of this life.


And He tells us in vs 20 those He will not reveal the Father to:

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not

The Son will not reveal the Father to those who do not repent.


It cannot be emphasized enough that we are not to rip verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them ... Scripture is very clear as to those whom the Son will reveal the Father ... and those to whom the Son will not reveal the Father.
.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden"

Maybe pre-selected party crashers do not need an invitation? That's what I came up with.

Alternative theory: the super-determinists don't rub shoulders with this sort of rabble, as they are elect before birth lottery winners.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What!? Jesus doesn't reveal the Father to each and every person on the planet? Sounds like Jesus plays favorites! In fact, it sounds like Jesus could be partial to his Father's chosen, covenant people!

If you would take the time to read the verse in the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it, you would know that Jesus does not reveal the Father to those who will not repent (Matt 11:20).

There's no ethereal group of "elect" in eternity past waiting to be born so they can be chosen.

In eternity past, God chose His Elect ... the Lord Jesus Christ ... and according to God's eternal purpose, those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ... and it's not "eenie meenie miney mo ... Mary yes ... Johnny no" ... it's whosoever believes.
.

 

[cv5]

I have been wanting to explore this idea of Adam's connection to the natural world for some time, the natural world being what he was made of, and the stated source of Adam's desire of the flesh, eyes, pride of life etc, and so why he sinned, would you agree? I do totally understand and agree with what you are saying about how he was not encumbered with sin the way we are, for he was not as yet a child of wrath, which we are born as by nature despite the hue and cry of free willers who proclaim otherwise, as it is their wont to contradict what Scripture explicitly states... and God certainly knew that was going to be Adam's choice... But anyway, the whole idea of, first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual... Adam did have access to the Tree of Life but chose death over that. I do wonder if he feared death, for later, fear of death is given as the reason for man's bondage to sin, and if so, why not just eat of the Tree of Life?

Interesting theory. But....no bueno.

[Gen 4:7 NKJV] 7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire [is] for you, but you should rule over it."

 

[Jordon]

Scripture never actually says that Adam's will was free. He was able to make choices as is anyone... but he was of the natural world.

James 1 verses 14-15; 1 John 2 verse 16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .

yep I know, but the nearest mankind has ever been to having any kind of real freedom, was when mankind was in the garden, since we are speaking of all mankind being in that garden, because the fall effected all mankind.

But I only really use the term free will coz it's the only people can relate to the term for people who believe in it, I believe it's really only freedom of choice.

 

[Jordon]

Hhhmmm. Well this thought had crossed my mind:

[Jhn 7:17 NKJV] 17 "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or [whether] I speak on My own [authority].

There many many scriptures centred around Gods will,

There's hundreds in fact, I know this as it's something I've took an interest to in the past.

Being Willing to do is will isn't exactly completely free will.

And again that can't be done alone.

 

[Magenta]

yep I know, but the nearest mankind has ever been to having any kind of real freedom, was when mankind was in the garden, since we are speaking of all mankind being in that garden, because the fall effected all mankind.

But I only really use the term free will coz it's the only people can relate to the term for people who believe in it, I believe it's really only freedom of choice.

The whole convo around free will is not really about choice though, but who is capable of making
what choices. The free will crowd claim is that the slave to sin is free to choose while captive to the
will of the devil as a lover of darkness and hostile to God. Whereas those who oppose this philosophically
based self-exalting precept taught as a doctrine adhere to what the Bible says of man, which is quite different
from what free will proponents claim. FWers say such things as the gospel is not hid, everyone hears, God is unfair,
and all manner of things which directly contradict what Scripture explicitly states... and always they ascribe to the
natural, unregenerated man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that only the spiritual man is in possession of.

 

[Jordon]

From this post I have quoted from you I am (guessing here) that you are not aware that Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1 [before the foundation of the world (the chosen)] are talking about the ancient Hebrew Jews whom like Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 explain were made righteous and Sanctified from being held to the LAW?
As They are the people God actually chose in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 from before the beginning and translated into the Son\Jesus after the work accomplished by Jesus was completed.

Paul said he was included and we know in his letters speaking on this topic he was talking to other Jews of his day. It's also much of why we believe that Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews because it's directed to the Jews and the content is also about why Jesus is their Messiah.

it could just mean one thing, but seeing as God for knows everything and is the keeper of all time. He will know who to choose and even before the foundations of the whole world.

But another point here is, if you do think it's just relating to one group only. That still doesn't take away that he was able to choose before the foundations of the world.

That core tennants here is it clearly states he was able to.

 

[Magenta]

it could just mean one thing, but seeing as God for knows everything and is the keeper of all time. He will know who to choose and even before the foundations of the whole world.

But another point here if he do think it's just relating to one group only. That still doesn't take away that he was able to choose before the foundations of the world.

That core tennants here is it clearly states he was able to.

Free willers don't like a few things... or more than a few things really haha, but election
and man's inability are right up there with God's sovereignty of things they cannot stomach.

 

[cv5]

Being Willing to do His will isn't exactly completely free will.

It isn't?
I'll stick with what He said thanks.

 

[BillyBob]

I am Jewish that can trace our Ancestry before 70 AD.

Scripture does not speak well of a prideful man......................

 

[Jordon]

The whole convo around free will is not really about choice though, but who is capable of making
what choices. The free will crowd claim is that the slave to sin is free to choose while captive to the
will of the devil as a lover of darkness and hostile to God. Whereas those who oppose this philosophically
based self-exalting precept taught as a doctrine adhere to what the Bible says of man, which is quite different
from what free will proponents claim. FWers say such things as the gospel is not hid, everyone hears, God is unfair,
and all manner of things which directly contradict what Scripture explicitly states... and always they ascribe to the
natural, unregenerated man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that only the spiritual man is in possession of.

I've understood that part,.and no I don't believe it's possible, if that where so we would have people being handed over to the lord who are not ready to be.

God for-knowing people starts from the day they where born, I believe more in there being cut off point before God decides to pass judgment.

 

[Jordon]

It isn't?
I'll stick with what He said thanks.

nope it isn't as you still need his guidance

 

[studier]

Are you for real!? "Some people choose not to obey..."? How about this: The vast majority of people in the world choose not to obey! No inherently evil person chooses to obey God's commands. The only people who do choose to obey are those in whom God has instilled the fear of Himself into their HEARTS (notice I didn't say into their "will"). The Fear of the Lord is an integral, necessary, indispensable AND EFFICACIOUS component to God's salvation that is granted only to God's covenant people in eternity. God has never made a redemptive covenant with the entire world. The New Covenant is made only with God's covenant people!

Some’ can certainly include the vast majority—it's intentionally ambiguous. Nothing you’ve said negates that Ecclesiastes issues real commands to the human will. And when you used the word ‘want,’ you invoked volition—you didn’t bypass it

 

[Jordon]

I've understood that part,.and no I don't believe it's possible, if that where so we would have people being handed over to the lord who are not ready to be.

God for-knowing people starts from the day they where born, I believe more in there being cut off point before God decides to pass judgment.

oops I edited this one just in time magenta. Mobile phones lol