Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

I actually think it was well worded and, on the surface, an accurate statement.

Having read your posts, I guess a question would be why you seem to think there is no decision and choice made by men between believing He exists and having "absolutely no faith in Him".

God is known through personal revelation. Jesus said so. Knowing He exists and having
personal experience with Him are two completely different things. Do you understand
this? I do have to wonder, since some here deny personal revelation is necessary. But
then they contradict and deny other things Jesus said as well...

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

 

[Rufus]

We can take this as monergistic or non-monergistic. So, knowing your predisposition it becomes a case in point of how men can speak a word or phrase and possibly find some agreement only to find out at some later point that they are speaking a different language and are actually in disagreement.

Where this started:

• Grace only saves when unassisted! Anything added to grace immediately cancels out grace.

In closing response to you:

• You're attempting to assert monergism by redefining faith as a ‘fulfillment’. But this fails, because it still makes salvation contingent on a subsequent event. Whether faith is caused or chosen, its necessity introduces assistance—thus grace is not truly unassisted.

Rescuing, saving grace is the only Cause necessary to produce faith. Faith is not man-made or produced by man, nor is the existence of faith determined in temporal reality. Grace is given to God's elect in eternity -- before anyone was born -- before anyone did anything good or bad. Did God consult with you in eternity to get your permission to "force" you to believe?

 

[Rufus]

why would you no longer want a person to be Calvinist ?

I can't read your view points in scripture if you don't specify exactly what point you where trying to make me see.

I can only guess your point is based upon mankind having a free will to overcome by his own will, which you believe disproves keys points of Calvinism

Such people who believe these things ended up taking Gods authority into there own hands, there is numerous passages on this, a famous one being when Moses parted the sea through the aid of God.

But really just another key point here is disproving points of view on calvinism based on free will, is really not wise because you could end up disproving way to much.

Because you end up making Calvinism the target to disprove anything and everything, when really mankind in it's fallen state does not really have any free will, which goes way back way before Calvinism even came into existence. The core tennants are more important.

Yup...so far far back as to be contained in the eternal Word of God, which is precisely the place that I came to see the Five Doctrines of Grace. So, I came upon them honestly -- straight from God's mouth, not Calvin's or Luther's or any other Reformer's.

 

[Jordon]

Before the foundations of the world to Rufus, you do know that scripture ?

But anyway another one was once mankind had the freedom to choose in garden, but that got taken away for all mankind.

But if you think about it what that really means is once apon time mankind was in a place of heaven able to choose there salvation, which got took away for all mankind

 

[Rufus]

God is known through personal revelation. Jesus said so. Knowing He exists and having
personal experience with Him are two completely different things. Do you understand
this? I do have to wonder, since some here deny personal revelation is necessary. But
then they contradict and deny other things Jesus said as well...

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

What!? Jesus doesn't reveal the Father to each and every person on the planet? Sounds like Jesus plays favorites! In fact, it sounds like Jesus could be partial to his Father's chosen, covenant people!

 

[BillyBob]

Before the foundations of the world to Rufus, you do know that scripture ?

But anyway another one was once mankind had the freedom to choose in garden, but that got taken away for all mankind.

But if you think about it what that really means is once apon time mankind was in a place of heaven able to choose there salvation, which got took away for all mankind

That is true! We have lost the ability to trust and obey. Only through renewal is the ability restored. And, even then, it is not perfectly restored.

 

[Rufus]

Before the foundations of the world to Rufus, you do know that scripture ?

But anyway another one was once mankind had the freedom to choose in garden, but that got taken away for all mankind.

But if you think about it what that really means is once apon time mankind was in a place of heaven able to choose there salvation, which got took away for all mankind

But be of good cheer! For once again, God will take away sin from all mankind on the last day when his saints will no longer be able to choose to sin. Sin and Death will be conquered and vanquished forever and ever -- very much to the chagrin of FWers since they will finally have to admit they are just "robots" and will always be. I don't know how they're going to be able to live with themselves, or more importantly with the God they professed in this age to be their potential savior.

 

[studier]

but the same world doesn't want anything to do with the one true God, as defined in the bible. They want no relationship with the God of revelation.

This is human will.

Why? Because there is no Fear of God in their eyes!

And this is the reality of the commands to the human will Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes. Some people choose not to obey the command, not to fear God, not to keep God's commands.

 

[studier]

I believe as I do because of my personal experience.
I do not think that man can place his trust in God before being renewed by the HS. Then, we are enabled to both hear and believe His word. This work by God the Father/Son/Spirit is not given to all men, but is reserved for His elect - and is given by grace. Totally undeserved!

Understood. But the Word has priority over experience.

What you think sounds like what you've been taught to think. And this takes us back to what I said just above.

 

[studier]

Rescuing, saving grace is the only Cause necessary to produce faith. Faith is not man-made or produced by man, nor is the existence of faith determined in temporal reality. Grace is given to God's elect in eternity -- before anyone was born -- before anyone did anything good or bad. Did God consult with you in eternity to get your permission to "force" you to believe?

I know the theory.

 

[Magenta]

This is human will.

And this is the reality of the commands to the human will Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes. Some people choose not to obey the command, not to fear God, not to keep God's commands.

Why do you keep ignoring that Scripture explicitly states that the man of flesh is incapable of obeying
and submitting to God??? That man hates God, and is opposed to the spiritual things of God?

Free willers refuse to stop ascribing to the unregenerated man what only the spiritual man is capable of.

 

[Rufus]

This is human will.



And this is the reality of the commands to the human will Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes. Some people choose not to obey the command, not to fear God, not to keep God's commands.

Are you for real!? "Some people choose not to obey..."? How about this: The vast majority of people in the world choose not to obey! No inherently evil person chooses to obey God's commands. The only people who do choose to obey are those in whom God has instilled the fear of Himself into their HEARTS (notice I didn't say into their "will"). The Fear of the Lord is an integral, necessary, indispensable AND EFFICACIOUS component to God's salvation that is granted only to God's covenant people in eternity. God has never made a redemptive covenant with the entire world. The New Covenant is made only with God's covenant people!

 

[lrs68]

Before the foundations of the world to Rufus, you do know that scripture ?

But anyway another one was once mankind had the freedom to choose in garden, but that got taken away for all mankind.

But if you think about it what that really means is once apon time mankind was in a place of heaven able to choose there salvation, which got took away for all mankind

From this post I have quoted from you I am (guessing here) that you are not aware that Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1 [before the foundation of the world (the chosen)] are talking about the ancient Hebrew Jews whom like Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 explain were made righteous and Sanctified from being held to the LAW?
As They are the people God actually chose in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 from before the beginning and translated into the Son\Jesus after the work accomplished by Jesus was completed.

Paul said he was included and we know in his letters speaking on this topic he was talking to other Jews of his day. It's also much of why we believe that Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews because it's directed to the Jews and the content is also about why Jesus is their Messiah.

 

[Magenta]

Before the foundations of the world to Rufus, you do know that scripture ?

But anyway another one was once mankind had the freedom to choose in garden, but that got taken away for all mankind.

But if you think about it what that really means is once apon time mankind was in a
place of heaven able to choose there salvation, which got took away for all mankind

Scripture never actually says that Adam's will was free. He was able to make choices as is anyone... but he was of the natural world.

James 1 verses 14-15; 1 John 2 verse 16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .

 

[Magenta]

Flesh serves the law of sin, for the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! Because everyone born of God overcomes the world. In the mixed up unBiblical theology, of the free will crowd , man overcomes the world with his wicked heart and is then born again.

 

[Rufus]

I know the theory.

It's no mere theory. God gave his grace to his elect in eternity (2Tim 1:9). Nor did Paul ever teach that God gave his grace to the entire world in eternity. Know why? Because He never decreed that the entire world be in a personal, loving, intimate, filial, covenant relationship with Him. But He did decree that all of Abraham's spiritual descendants would be!

 

[Magenta]

Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unt

 

[BillyBob]

From this post I have quoted from you I am (guessing here) that you are not aware that Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1 [before the foundation of the world (the chosen)] are talking about the ancient Hebrew Jews whom like Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 explain were made righteous and Sanctified from being held to the LAW?
As They are the people God actually chose in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 from before the beginning and translated into the Son\Jesus after the work accomplished by Jesus was completed.

Paul said he was included and we know in his letters speaking on this topic he was talking to other Jews of his day. It's also much of why we believe that Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews because it's directed to the Jews and the content is also about why Jesus is their Messiah.

I take it that you are an ancient Hebrew Jew!

 

[Cameron143]

All commands are an appeal to the volition of man. The command and the law it gives expression to are designed to lead one to the gospel wherein justification can be found. Having been justified, the gospel returns us to the law wherein we find the knowledge of how justified individuals are to live. The problem arises when one seeks to find justification from the volitional choices apart from the gospel. This is nothing less than idolatry.

 

[Magenta]

It's no mere theory. God gave his grace to his elect in eternity (2Tim 1:9). Nor did Paul ever teach that God gave his grace to the entire world in eternity. Know why? Because He never decreed that the entire world be in a personal, loving, intimate, filial, covenant relationship with Him. But He did decree that all of Abraham's spiritual descendants would be!

He thinks what he has been taught to think.