Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Kroogz]

Out of context! Jn 12 isn't teaching that Jesus will draw all people w/o exception to himself. The CONTEXT is that Jesus would draw all people w/o distinction to himself, i.e. Jews and Gentiles. The text itself bears this truth out, since both Jews (but not all) and Gentiles (again not all) sought Jesus out in that chapter. Learn how to exegete scripture!

Like I said, right out of the gates you fall flat on your face.

Next you are going to try to convince us that Adams trespass isn't teaching it's for all people without exception.

Adams trespass was for all. MUCH MORE was the Grace gift for ALL.

 

[Genez]

Well...I'm just like Israel of old who was called out of this world. I'm not part of this world, so I'll let you presume to be the spokesman for this ungodly world and for the prince of this world.

Yes, you are just like Israel... in regards to the Pharisees, you be one.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And Jesus did not pray that the world would know him, as in come to saving knowledge. You read that presupposition into the text.

you read your "presupposition" into the post.

Rather then text says that world may know something ABOUT him! Very many in the world know quite a bit about Christ but have no personal, intimate, covenantal relationship with him. They do not know Him personally.

yes ... when the gospel of Christ is preached, one either believes or rejects ... so sad that some reject ...

But according to you, Jesus must have changed the demands of the gospel. All the world has to know ABOUT Christ is that the Father sent Him into the world.

rolleyes ... more of your "presupposition".
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[Rufus]

Your 65:4 is the incorrect translation which is why I presented it found in the actual Hebrew Tanakh.

And yes, your post proves you definitely don't know Hebrew at all and that's tremendously sad knowing that's the Language God used to write the entire Old Testament aside from the few Verses in Aramaic which is very close to Hebrew as it gets.

The most literal translations (and even the NIV for that matter!) do not read the way you say. The KJV, NKJV, Darby, YLT, NASB, and ASV all read either "causes to approach thee" or "thou dost choose and bring near to thee".

The text is not saying that such a man (or "those") may or may not choose to be in the presence of God. Or that maybe those will choose... In fact, the second part of the verse clearly says, "We WILL be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, the holy temple". That's an unqualified statement!

 

[Rufus]

Yes, you are just like Israel... in regards to the Pharisees, you be one.

Nah...The Pharisees didn't hold to the Reformed Traditions of the Faith. Not only that but they were worldly!

 

[Cameron143]

He paid the penalty for our sin. He was forsaken (cut off) and died physically. This is the wages of sin brought about because of Adam's sin.

If the wages of sin were more than this we would be born into the lake of fire for having rejected Christ. The Lord gives us the opportunity to live and know Christ before He judges us for our evil.

When you can show me He suffered forever in the lake of fire, then you have a case for the penalty of our sin being the lake of fire. Until then you are like a judge sending a man to prison for life for a misdemeanour.

If the wages of sin is physical death and Jesus paid for that, why do we still die physically?

 

[Rufus]

you read your "presupposition" into the post.





yes ... when the gospel of Christ is preached, one either believes or rejects ... so sad that some reject ...





rolleyes ... more of your "presupposition".
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You're the one perverting the gospel by talking out of both sides of your mouth simultaneously. You cannot reconcile your own man-made contradiction between 17:9 and v. 21. You have Jesus not praying for the world (v. 9) and praying for the world (v. 21)at the same time and in the same sense. Ever hear of the Law of Noncontradiction?

 

[Cameron143]

In God's mind, Jesus was already slain before the foundations of the world.
By virtue of that truth?
And, that God can not fail?
Is the reason man was not forsaken.

So it didn't take the cross to do so. It only required God's intention to send Jesus to the cross.

 

[Genez]

Nah...The Pharisees didn't hold to the Reformed Traditions of the Faith. Not only that but they were worldly!

It was not just what they believed that made them Pharisees.

It was how they believed.

 

[Rufus]

Like I said, right out of the gates you fall flat on your face.

Next you are going to try to convince us that Adams trespass isn't teaching it's for all people without exception.

Adams trespass was for all. MUCH MORE was the Grace gift for ALL.

Can't be. God gives his grace/favor only to the humble, which hardly describes each and every person in the world w/o exception.

 

[Rufus]

It was not just what they believed that made them Pharisees.

It was how they believed.

Since they were OF this world, they believed with a worldly, self-righteous faith.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I debunked that ill-conceived interpretation long ago!

I have not read anything written by you concerning this record ... do you think all members of CC avidly follow you to read every single post you submit on the board?

What you conveniently leave out from the larger context is that God did not give an opportunity for ALL the Israelites to look upon the bronze serpent. It was only AFTER a bunch of Israelites had already died did he give the remaining group such an opportunity. Learn how to read and exegete scripture already!

perhaps it is you who needs to "learn how to read" what is submitted in a post:

not all believe when God comes to draw all people to Himself ... just like in the wilderness when the snake was raised up ... only the ones who looked were healed.

where did I state or even imply that God allowed "a bunch of Israelites [who] had already died" to gaze upon the serpent.

you or I cannot go back in time and preach the gospel to folks who have already passed ... that is an impossibility.

What we can do is preach the gospel to those with whom we come into contact ... that is what God has called us to do ... and folks either believe or do not believe the gospel when preached. However, just because someone does not believe at the time you or I preach the gospel ... that does not mean they will not believe the next time the gospel is preached ... we plant or water ... God gives increase.

Quit reading your EOE drivel into passages of holy writ!

how about you quit reading posts submitted by others in a never-ending search for something to brawl over ...
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[Rufus]

I have not read anything written by you concerning this record ... do you think all members of CC avidly follow you to read every single post you submit on the board?






perhaps it is you who needs to "learn how to read" what is submitted in a post:



where did I state or even imply that God allowed "a bunch of Israelites [who] had already died" to gaze upon the serpent.

you or I cannot go back in time and preach the gospel to folks who have already passed ... that is an impossibility.

What we can do is preach the gospel to those with whom we come into contact ... that is what God has called us to do ... and folks either believe or do not believe the gospel when preached. However, just because someone does not believe at the time you or I preach the gospel ... that does not mean they will not believe the next time the gospel is preached ... we plant or water ... God gives increase.





how about you quit reading posts submitted by others in a never-ending search for something to brawl over ...
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You should read my posts. You might learn something.

Your post clearly implied that God gave EQUAL opportunity to all in the wilderness. God ELECTED who He would save from death, which was only the group that didn't die before the serpent was erected. In fact, the bronze serpent incident is great illustration of the truth taught in Rom 9:21! Were not all the Israelites made from "one clump of clay"? Yet, we see in the Numbers narrative that God sovereignly set aside from that one lump a second lump in order to save them. Very Kool, right? There we have it! Selective Salvation!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

even some FWers here do believe that salvation is a process, as I do.

None that I have seen. Salvation is a moment in time. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.....Eternal life.

Sanctification is a process in time.

exactly ... born again ... feed on milk of the Word ... grow and mature to the point where the meat of the Word can be eaten ... God is at work within bringing the believer to maturity to the point where we are no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).

Praise God for His lovingkindness, mercy, grace ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

Your 65:4 is the incorrect translation which is why I presented it found in the actual Hebrew Tanakh.

And yes, your post proves you definitely don't know Hebrew at all and that's tremendously sad knowing that's the Language God used to write the entire Old Testament aside from the few Verses in Aramaic which is very close to Hebrew as it gets.

I am thankful for the Hebrew insight into the verse.
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[Genez]

Since they were OF this world, they believed with a worldly, self-righteous faith.

Do you think they thought themselves to be self righteous?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you suppose that Moses was a God-fearing man or not when he encountered the theophany?

And the fact that God himself chooses men to bring near to Himself should tell you that God will not fail in what He has purposed to do.
No mere finite, fallible, weak, feeble, impotent mortal can thwart God's plans or purposes or frustrate them.

why do you get so upset when we state that all men = all men??? ... just because they are drawn does not mean they are saved ... God allows men to reject and as you have stated "No mere finite, fallible, weak, feeble, impotent mortal can thwart God's plans or purposes or frustrate them" ... so folks not believing when God draws them is no surprise to God ... mankind will have no excuse come judgment day ... all will know that they rejected God.
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[sawdust]

first ... apologies it has taken so long to respond ... just a lot on my plate and what we're discussing goes beyond just scratching the surface ...

No need to apologize, take as long as you want I have eternity to spare.

I went back through the info submitted by me in this thread and I do not see where I stated what you claim.

I did mention I may have been mistaken. Apologies.

Just to clarify and picking up on @studier use of terminology ...
Do you see the new heart, new life and new creation as synonymous or what?

I do not believe God created nephesh in Gen 1:26-28 ... nephesh was created on Day 5 (Gen 1:20-23). As I indicated, the only difference between living creatures (nephesh) and Adam is that God breathed into Adam's (nephesh) ... which is something God did not do in living creatures on Day 5. The nephesh is the same ... it is breath life.

The other difference between Adam and the living creatures is that Adam was created in the image and likeness of God ... that was "God creating (bara) the human spirit".

So Adam was different from all other living creatures in his nephesh ... because God breathed into Adam's nephesh (soul) something He did not breathe into all other living creatures ... and Adam was created in the image of God (spirit). Adam was originally spirit, soul, body.

I'm afraid we are going to disagree as to what God created in Genesis 1:26-27. I believe at the heart of nephesh is consciousness, it is what distinguishes it from the life of a plant or bacteria. There are levels of consciousness. Basic, like in a cockroach that is conscious of dark and light up to an ape that has (apparently) some self awareness. Then there is man, his soul, being created in the image of God, has the highest level of consciousness as he is fully self aware and with semi-transcendent ability (abstract thought).

Something I find interesting is when it came to the living souls of the sea and the air God is said to "bara" (created) them but the living souls of the land are said to be "asa" (made). This is one of the reasons I believe nephesh is not uniform across all life forms. Also of the animals it is said their life is in the blood Lev.17:11 whereas with people we see they continue to live without blood as their life is in the soul. Rev.6:9

In agreement that when Adam sinned, he no longer reflected the image of God (in his (Adam's) spirit.

Have you considered the verses wherein God tells us He takes away the stony heart and gives a new heart of flesh?

I believe that the old stony heart that is removed by God from the newborn believer is what originally housed the image of God in Adam. Then, when we are born again, God removes the old stony heart and creates the new heart within ... the heart of flesh ... the abode of the new creation within the born again believer.

As I believe Adam's spirit returned to God when he sinned, I don't believe the image and likeness was created in his spirit to begin with ergo, it was his soul that was marred and his body underwent a mutation that saw a genetically formed corruption enter his flesh, the "other law" we see in Rom.7:23

The new heart is always linked with the new spirit Eze.11:19 and 36:26 I see the new heart as being given the capacity for understanding spiritual matters due to the enlightenment that comes form having a human spirit. Without a human spirit we remain in darkness hence, the heart turns to stone when the word of God is rejected/neglected.

I think I see the new creation as something different to you as well. I don't see the new heart as making us a new creation for people like Noah, Job and Daniel all had a new heart for they were most faithful in following the Lord. Eze.14:14 What I believe makes us a new creation is our position of being in Christ. This is something that never happened before, certainly Noah, Job and Daniel were not in Christ. Peter describes it as being partakers of the divine nature 2Pet.1:4 and I wonder if any of us truly appreciate just how incredible the promises are and what they afford us.

grace and peace

 

[Rufus]

Do you think they thought themselves to be self righteous?

No man has to bring himself to any sin; for all men are intrinsically evil.

The better question would be: Did God leave most of them in their sin?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You have Jesus not praying for the world (v. 9)

yes ... in vs 9, Jesus was praying specifically for His disciples and He later expands His prayer to include others.

and praying for the world (v. 21)at the same time and in the same sense.

not in the same sense.

Ever hear of the Law of Noncontradiction?

ever hear of reading with comprehension ... although I don't really believe you're interested in comprehending ... you seem bent on reading with a goal of disagreement to further your effort at brawling.
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