Israel.

[God-fearing]

Now mind you this maybe a look at present day Israel but I tend to see it in the 1000 yr reign.

The lord did say he makes beauty from ashes......he restores the years the locust ate.

Now remember what Jesus said to the theif on the cross.....today you will be with me in Paradise? We'll we kinda look back at the garden as such a place but according to what happened in that Paradise are first parents wernt content in it. And that of the old.
The new heaven and earth Paul declared it will be exceeding more than one could imagine.
I can't wait thank you Lord.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The only problem i have in this is i believe it happens in the 1000 yr. Reign. It talks about restoration which is a restoring of things.
A new heaven and earth replaces .
The promises of restoration in Isaiah and others suggest that it is a earthly per its description.
Isaiah 35:6-7
Then the lame will leap like a deer and the mute tongue will shout for joy. For waters will gush forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert. / The parched ground will become a pool, the thirsty land springs of water. In the haunt where jackals once lay, there will be grass and reeds and papyrus.

Isaiah 51:3
For the LORD will comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; He will make her wilderness like Eden and her desert like the garden of the LORD. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and melodious song

Jeremiah 31:22
How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

yeah there’s going to be a new earth , that’s where all that’s going to be fulfilled. Revelation has confused people for ages because they don’t realize it’s an apacolypse coming from the ot scriptures

but I digress and it’s perfectly acceptable for you to believe what you do I just like discussing with you you seem open kind of to a new thought if it comes from scripture so I appreciate you putting up with my foolishness

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

“The Jews for the most part are still blinded to their Messiah. “

do you know why ? Because they won’t let go of the covenant made at Sinai through Moses and accept the new covenant

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they refuse to look at the promises made to Abraham regarding his seed Jesus Christ that’s thier everlasting covenant based on his promise

about they trust Moses words instead and never even heard his witness of Jesus so they’ll always be blind trying to restore a broken covenant that’s a curse now while rejecting Jesus

But the Bible says blinded for a time, not forever.

do you believe the curses god promised if they broke thier covenant ?

Yes, and they have suffered and lost use of the land because of it. But God promised to regather them where they will never be uprooted again. Until that happens, the Abrahamic covenant still holds.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But the Bible says blinded for a time, not forever.




Yes, and they have suffered and lost use of the land because of it. But God promised to regather them where they will never be uprooted again. Until that happens, the Abrahamic covenant still holds.

“Abrahamic covenant “

“And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:15-18‬ ‭

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7-9, 14, 16, 27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah ……Abraham’s covenant is still and always will be in effect , it’s just not the covenant you’re thinking about

You really aren’t willing to hear this part

“And I ( jesus ) say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you read Israel’s covenant ever you’ll see he promised if they would have o eyed him he was going to make them his kingdom in this earth and dwell among them but they rejected him then rejected and persecuted and killed all the prophets he sent them callong the to repent , eventually rejected and killed his son who came to save and restore their broken selves to life but they shouted at Jesus trial “ we have no king but ceasar ! Away with the nazarite crucify the blasphemer “

you should study the abomination of desolation there’s no restoring then in this earth gods doing a new thing you still want to remember the old things they ruined and are still trying to make them an obedient people …. They aren’t it’s the opposite

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

“Abrahamic covenant “

“And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:15-18‬ ‭

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7-9, 14, 16, 27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah ……Abraham’s covenant is still and always will be in effect , it’s just not the covenant you’re thinking about

You really aren’t willing to hear this part

“And I ( jesus ) say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you read Israel’s covenant ever you’ll see he promised if they would have o eyed him he was going to make them his kingdom in this earth and dwell among them but they rejected him then rejected and persecuted and killed all the prophets he sent them callong the to repent , eventually rejected and killed his son who came to save and restore their broken selves to life but they shouted at Jesus trial “ we have no king but ceasar ! Away with the nazarite crucify the blasphemer “

you should study the abomination of desolation there’s no restoring then in this earth gods doing a new thing you still want to remember the old things they ruined and are still trying to make them an obedient people …. They aren’t it’s the opposite

Thank you for posting all these verses throughout the thread.I wonder if there's anyone who reads the thread that is starting to question what they have been taught growing up in Christ who/what is Israel.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you for posting all these verses throughout the thread.I wonder if there's anyone who reads the thread that is starting to question what they have been taught growing up in Christ who/what is Israel.

I believe that scripture tells a clear story my posts often get long because I don’t believe in single verse theology. So I try to share some I think is relevant. I’m glad you find some value and relevance in the scriptures I sometimes share . my thoughts may not be correct or agreeable about them , but I believe the scripture is the right information.

have you ever read Paul’s allegory of the two covenants ? (Galatians 4:21-31)It’s enlightening if you know Abraham’s story in genesis 12-22 and the blessings on his two sons ishmael and Isaac

It really helps to reveal the two covenants made with Abram the Hebrew , and Abraham the Father of many nations. How ishmael ( old covenant ) was blessed but also cast out of Abraham’s house but Isaac ( new covenant ) who was of promise received the inheritance .

It’s a good read if you’ve looked into Abraham’s story . We really should o ow Abraham’s story way before Israel’s story or we’ll never see it .

“and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: ( this would only work for someone willing to learn ) that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God bless and thank you also for your contributions to the threads

 

[God-fearing]

yeah there’s going to be a new earth , that’s where all that’s going to be fulfilled. Revelation has confused people for ages because they don’t realize it’s an apacolypse coming from the ot scriptures

but I digress and it’s perfectly acceptable for you to believe what you do I just like discussing with you you seem open kind of to a new thought if it comes from scripture so I appreciate you putting up with my foolishness

Not foolish at all bro....its refreshing to agree to disagree.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Not foolish at all bro....its refreshing to agree to disagree.

Lol well some of it I’m sure is foolishness but I appreciate the kindness

 

[Gideon300]

“The Jews for the most part are still blinded to their Messiah. “

do you know why ? Because they won’t let go of the covenant made at Sinai through Moses and accept the new covenant

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they refuse to look at the promises made to Abraham regarding his seed Jesus Christ that’s thier everlasting covenant based on his promise

about they trust Moses words instead and never even heard his witness of Jesus so they’ll always be blind trying to restore a broken covenant that’s a curse now while rejecting Jesus

I wouldn’t expect a great Jewish conversion to chrirtianity any time soon I would however expect many individual Jews and gentiles to believe the gospel and be saved and fill the lords earth to come

do you believe the curses god promised if they broke thier covenant ?

20 years ago, there was a handful of believers in Israel. Now there are 30,000 and increasing. Many Muslims in Gaza are turning to Jesus also.

There are many more Christian ministries in Israel now. Unlike America and Europe, where the church is in decline, it is growing in Israel. Many messianic Jews are leaving their homeland to settle in Israel. That is hardly surprising considering how hostile the world is to Jews. Funny how the followers of a mass murdering paedophile are protected while its open season on Jews. And that is exactly why God restored Israel in 1948. They have somewhere to go where they are at least treated like human beings.

 

[Gideon300]

Right I agree . Even until right now haven’t had a temple of control of the land since 70ad

they chose the curses and broke the covenant then it had to be fulfilled and a new one had to be given that’s the gospel Jesus never ever ever promised an earthly restoration of any nation including isreal he only foretold tbier destruction and desolation .

And then he gave a new covenant promising salvation from thier Cursed one but it’s new . A new promised land is part of the new covenant

Read Revelation chapter 11. It speaks of a physical temple in Jerusalem. When John wrote these things, Herod's temple had already been destroyed. That chapter also speaks of the Temple of God in heaven, which cannot be the same temple. The nations have no hope of invading that Temple!

Lord Jesus ministered for 3-1/2 years, yet the record of His works and words cover only a few weeks. We don't know what He may have said apart from what we read.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

20 years ago, there was a handful of believers in Israel. Now there are 30,000 and increasing. Many Muslims in Gaza are turning to Jesus also.

There are many more Christian ministries in Israel now. Unlike America and Europe, where the church is in decline, it is growing in Israel. Many messianic Jews are leaving their homeland to settle in Israel. That is hardly surprising considering how hostile the world is to Jews. Funny how the followers of a mass murdering paedophile are protected while its open season on Jews. And that is exactly why God restored Israel in 1948. They have somewhere to go where they are at least treated like human beings.

That's a carnal interpretation of where a Israelite can find rest.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

20 years ago, there was a handful of believers in Israel. Now there are 30,000 and increasing. Many Muslims in Gaza are turning to Jesus also.

There are many more Christian ministries in Israel now. Unlike America and Europe, where the church is in decline, it is growing in Israel. Many messianic Jews are leaving their homeland to settle in Israel. That is hardly surprising considering how hostile the world is to Jews. Funny how the followers of a mass murdering paedophile are protected while its open season on Jews. And that is exactly why God restored Israel in 1948. They have somewhere to go where they are at least treated like human beings.

Yeah like I said some would agree here with u

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Read Revelation chapter 11. It speaks of a physical temple in Jerusalem. When John wrote these things, Herod's temple had already been destroyed. That chapter also speaks of the Temple of God in heaven, which cannot be the same temple. The nations have no hope of invading that Temple!

Lord Jesus ministered for 3-1/2 years, yet the record of His works and words cover only a few weeks. We don't know what He may have said apart from what we read.

Yeah I’ve read revelation

 

[Shoshie]

Palestine is in fact Israel. It is the name given by Rome as an insult, referring to the inhabitants of the land prior to Abraham. Rome was fed up (and rightly so) with Israel's rebellion. The destruction of the temple did not inhibit Israel's rebellion.

Rome took away all of Israel's self government. Finally, Rome effectively destroyed Israel as a functioning nation and renamed it Palestine. Palestine has never existed as an independent state.

This is not conjecture, it is history. God never changed the name to Palestine. God warned Israel that they would be scattered but also that He would bring them back. And so He has.



There is a lot that is not clear in the Book of Revelation. However, to dismiss everything we don't understand as metaphorical is unwise, if we want to know the truth. It's better to say, "I don't know" than to pretend to know what it literal and what is not.

 

[Shoshie]

Id like to take a moment and address a few issuesxre: Israel.It seems we are all wishing to discuss physical and spiritual Israel and if, in fact, both do and can exist simultaneously.
I would suggest they can. If you will allow me, I want to give a simple explanation and then delve into some Biblical info.
I am a Christian, a former teacher. So let's say Im unemployed and looking for work. Im living in one portion of the US but I feel compelled to leave my area and go across country and take a job there. I get there and I know Ive been obedient because the Lord uses me in ways I could never have imagined, yet when I first left, I just sensed His guidance to go. He didn't reveal the whole plan.
With Israel, God called Abraham to leave Ur and to go to a place He would show him. God asks him to go not knowing where He is going , a walk of faith and later a revelation but still not a complete understanding of what will unfold through his descendants. All people of the earth will be blessed. How? Jesus!!!
So my next thought was did Jesus ever leave what was considered the land of Israel and minister anywhere else? Yes, but let me deal with the regions of zisrael first. He was, of course born in Bethleham, grew up in Nazareth, ministered in Capernaum, Cana, Tiberias, Bethany, Bethesda, at the Sea of Galilee, Jerusalem, was baptized in the Jordan River. He also was taken to Egypt as a baby to protect him from Herod's murder edict (of which Hosea says out of Egypt Ibhave called my son). Just a little aside, but Jacob and his sons were in Egypt to survive famine under the wisdom of Joseph, but Jacob whose name was changed to Israel would later have his descendants leaving Egypt headed home.
Okay, then, Jesus ministered in Tyre and Sidon, modern day Lebanon and in the Decapolis, 10 Greek cities, however, it is here he encounters the Syro-Phoenician
woman who had the demon possessed daughter. This is the time He talks about not giving the children's bread to the dogs. I wont elaborate on this statement as many others have already. Jesus wasn't being mean to the woman but merely keeping in line with the timing of His focus then, His people. He definitely had a desire for all people to accept Him, hence, He sent out the 12 who would revolutionize the world.
Then, we have the Revelation period, in which, chapter 7 speaks of the 144,000 sealed. Im not sure why there always tends to be an effort to say this means other than what it says. If it says, 12,000 from Judah, why should we believe it means anything different. We dont have problems with a specific place being named. Is there a real Megiddo where the Battle of Armageddon will be fought. Again in Chapter 14, the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. Does it not also say that they sang the song of Moses AND the song of the LAMB so who else but actual Jews would be referenced here? In Revelation 12, we have a picture of a woman , again the number 12 represented and the description of satan trying to destroy her child but He is instead caught up to Heaven, picture of Israel with Mary(not as a saint) but representative of Israel whose Son is Jesus and is caught up to Heaven. Finally, in Revelation 21, we have tge New Jerusalem depicted as coming down but you have gates and foundation stones representing the Apostles and the tribes of Israel .
My point, it seems pretty clear that God, in His mercy and grace, had (has) a beautiful plan for those of the tribes of israel who accept His Son and as well those of us Gentiles who accept His Son as well. They will/ and some already are our brothers and sisters in the Lord. They were destined to be in that "place" and that time to be a part of God's prophetic plan just as I presented the example of myself at the beginning of this pist. So can we stop all the jealousy and hating and Praise Jesus that He is so gracious and merciful that He wishes none to perish?! What would His reaction be to Jews who accept Him? I believe He would have a big smile and loving arms open wide!!!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

“Abrahamic covenant “
If you read Israel’s covenant ever you’ll see he promised if they would have o eyed him he was going to make them his kingdom in this earth and dwell among them but they rejected him then rejected and persecuted and killed all the prophets he sent them callong the to repent , eventually rejected and killed his son who came to save and restore their broken selves to life but they shouted at Jesus trial “ we have no king but ceasar ! Away with the nazarite crucify the blasphemer “

An unconditional or unilateral covenant is an agreement between two parties, but only one of the two parties has to do something. Nothing is required of the other party.
The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth

God continually says here "I will"!

The ceremony recorded in Genesis 15 indicates the unconditional nature of the covenant. When a covenant was dependent upon both parties keeping commitments, then both parties would pass between the pieces of animals. In Genesis 15, God alone moves between the halves of the animals. Abraham was in a deep sleep. God’s solitary action indicates that the covenant is principally His promise. He binds Himself to the covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant included the promise of land (Genesis 12:1). It was a specific land, an actual property, with dimensions specified in Genesis 15:18–21. In Genesis 13:15, God gives Abraham all the land that he can see, and the gift is declared to be “forever.” God was not going to renege on His promise. The territory given as part of the Abrahamic Covenant is expanded in Deuteronomy 30:1–10, often called the Palestinian Covenant.

At no point in history, though, has Israel controlled all of the land God had specified. There remains, therefore, a final fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant that will see Israel occupying their God-given homeland to the fullest extent. The fulfillment will be more than a matter of geography; it will also be a time of holiness and restoration (see Ezekiel 20:40–44 and 36:1—37:28).

Five times in Genesis 12, as God is giving the Abrahamic Covenant, He says, “I will.” Clearly, God takes the onus of keeping the covenant upon Himself. The covenant is unconditional. One day, Israel will repent, be forgiven, and be restored to God’s favor (Zechariah 12:10–14; Romans 11:25–27). One day, the nation of Israel will possess the entire territory promised to them. One day, the Messiah will return to set up His throne, and through His righteous rule the whole world will be blessed with an abundance of peace, pleasure, and prosperity.

 

[Aaron56]

Id like to take a moment and address a few issuesxre: Israel.It seems we are all wishing to discuss physical and spiritual Israel and if, in fact, both do and can exist simultaneously.
I would suggest they can. If you will allow me, I want to give a simple explanation and then delve into some Biblical info.
I am a Christian, a former teacher. So let's say Im unemployed and looking for work. Im living in one portion of the US but I feel compelled to leave my area and go across country and take a job there. I get there and I know Ive been obedient because the Lord uses me in ways I could never have imagined, yet when I first left, I just sensed His guidance to go. He didn't reveal the whole plan.
With Israel, God called Abraham to leave Ur and to go to a place He would show him. God asks him to go not knowing where He is going , a walk of faith and later a revelation but still not a complete understanding of what will unfold through his descendants. All people of the earth will be blessed. How? Jesus!!!
So my next thought was did Jesus ever leave what was considered the land of Israel and minister anywhere else? Yes, but let me deal with the regions of zisrael first. He was, of course born in Bethleham, grew up in Nazareth, ministered in Capernaum, Cana, Tiberias, Bethany, Bethesda, at the Sea of Galilee, Jerusalem, was baptized in the Jordan River. He also was taken to Egypt as a baby to protect him from Herod's murder edict (of which Hosea says out of Egypt Ibhave called my son). Just a little aside, but Jacob and his sons were in Egypt to survive famine under the wisdom of Joseph, but Jacob whose name was changed to Israel would later have his descendants leaving Egypt headed home.
Okay, then, Jesus ministered in Tyre and Sidon, modern day Lebanon and in the Decapolis, 10 Greek cities, however, it is here he encounters the Syro-Phoenician
woman who had the demon possessed daughter. This is the time He talks about not giving the children's bread to the dogs. I wont elaborate on this statement as many others have already. Jesus wasn't being mean to the woman but merely keeping in line with the timing of His focus then, His people. He definitely had a desire for all people to accept Him, hence, He sent out the 12 who would revolutionize the world.
Then, we have the Revelation period, in which, chapter 7 speaks of the 144,000 sealed. Im not sure why there always tends to be an effort to say this means other than what it says. If it says, 12,000 from Judah, why should we believe it means anything different. We dont have problems with a specific place being named. Is there a real Megiddo where the Battle of Armageddon will be fought. Again in Chapter 14, the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. Does it not also say that they sang the song of Moses AND the song of the LAMB so who else but actual Jews would be referenced here? In Revelation 12, we have a picture of a woman , again the number 12 represented and the description of satan trying to destroy her child but He is instead caught up to Heaven, picture of Israel with Mary(not as a saint) but representative of Israel whose Son is Jesus and is caught up to Heaven. Finally, in Revelation 21, we have tge New Jerusalem depicted as coming down but you have gates and foundation stones representing the Apostles and the tribes of Israel .
My point, it seems pretty clear that God, in His mercy and grace, had (has) a beautiful plan for those of the tribes of israel who accept His Son and as well those of us Gentiles who accept His Son as well. They will/ and some already are our brothers and sisters in the Lord. They were destined to be in that "place" and that time to be a part of God's prophetic plan just as I presented the example of myself at the beginning of this pist. So can we stop all the jealousy and hating and Praise Jesus that He is so gracious and merciful that He wishes none to perish?! What would His reaction be to Jews who accept Him? I believe He would have a big smile and loving arms open wide!!!

I addressed this on page 1:

Hearing and then seeing is a theme in Revelation.

Earlier in the same book, John records this passage:

“Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.
I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

While John is weeping, the elder says to him "See, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah..."
John hears "Look, the Lion!" One would expect to see some type of a lion.

But then John turns to look and he sees this:

"Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain..."

Hears "Look a lion!" -> Sees a lamb that looked like it had been slain.
Now, we know that the lion and the lamb refer to neither animal but to a specific person: Christ Jesus.

This pattern is also relevant to the passage in Revelation 7.

John hears the number of those who were sealed;

Revelation 7 "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

And then the number from each tribe is enumerated:

"From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad... etc."

Notice, this was to be a list from "all the tribes of Israel" yet it is not: Dan is missing and Mannasseh, one of Joseph's sons, is added.
So, just from the text (and excluding any religious gymnastics) we should know that this is NOT a list of the physical tribes of Israel.

This is something else.

12x12x1000 (144,000) represents a perfect multitude (12 - divine completeness and 1,000 - great multitude). This should be understood as vast number of people where no one chosen by God is missing: it is complete and perfect.

But let's continue...

So John hears "144,000 from the tribes of Israel!" (a specific number and specific types of people) and then he looks and sees...

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

...he sees a great multitude no one could count. This is the perfect divine multitude no one could count.

It humors me - Revelation is so full of imagery, even imagery of the Lord, but people who want to shoehorn their politics into Revelation insist that chapter 7 is literal.. except, of course, they’ll need to add additional fabricated reasoning for the absence of Dan and the inclusion of Manasseh.

I could write nearly a page for every sentence above but let me conclude this:

Revelation 7 requires wisdom to understand, like the rest of the book. This is not a count of 144,000 Hebrews. It is something else.

 

[HeIsHere]

When one's theology treats the church as a sloppy second to an apostate nation one might want to re-evaluate one's views.

God has always had one covenant people, the church/ekklesia/body of believers, which He is building.

 

[HeIsHere]

Thank you for posting all these verses throughout the thread.I wonder if there's anyone who reads the thread that is starting to question what they have been taught growing up in Christ who/what is Israel.

The land, the land, the land, the land, blah blah blah, as if God did not accomplish all He proposed before the arrival of Christ Jesus and with the advent of Christ Jesus.

Land above the Saviour, ridiculous.

 

[Melach]