Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[BillyBob]

This has to be a "doctrine" which appeals to the flesh, "special me" I was chosen, I made the cut!

You need to get yourself a light-saber like mine. It will cut through anything!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

No I diddn't ignore them like I said I am looking at this from all aspects. So then if being able to choose from right and wrong is not free will then what is it? what do we call that if not free will? and how does free will differ from being able to choose?

just an fyi, Blain ... what Magenta posted at 9318 is just her opinion concerning what she calls a "FWer" or "freewiller" ...
.

 

[Magenta]

You need to get yourself a light-saber like mine. It will cut through anything!

light sabre

 

[Blain]

You said nothing about them, and did not respond any time i posted them to you. That looks like ignoring to me.

The crux of the free will debate is whether man needs to be reborn first, since the natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God (he is actually opposed to those very things), and the gospel is heard as foolishness. Free willers deny this. They mock the whole idea of being spiritually dead, and also as you know scorn the idea of God revealing Himself to anyone in drawing us with loving kindness. The free willer ascribes to the natural unregenerated man characteristics possessed only by the regenerated man.

I apologize for not responding to them, but as for the need to be regenerated first yes you have to be regenerated first other wise the gospel will just fall on deaf ears.

 

[cv5]

You know what is really "unjust' pre-selecting some people and and leaving others who hear the Gospel without the magic touch of divine favor.

It's the cruel hoaxing of the hopeful trusting souls that gets me.

These souls, who, in child-like trust and faith, (also aware that they are being obedient to His command to do so) literally"come" to Jesus (a response to His call by an act of their will), only then to be devastated, discovering later that they have been abandoned to the lake of fire, as they were not a random winner in the pre-birth lottery.

And that God's much advertised goodness and graciousness and forgiveness and fairness is actually cruelty and fickleness and condemnation.

 

[Magenta]

I apologize for not responding to them, but as for the need to be regenerated first yes you have to be regenerated first other wise the gospel will just fall on deaf ears.

That is it in a nutshell. Glad we got that sorted...

 

[Blain]

just an fyi, Blain ... what Magenta posted at 9318 is just her opinion concerning what she calls a "FWer" or "freewiller" ...
.

And that is what I am trying to understand, what actually is considered free will in the context of choice? what makes one able to freely choose vs being a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness?

 

[lrs68]

I honestly think that man, to become save, must believe and trust in the Lord. But, I do not believe that he can do this prior to the work of the Spirit. Man is spiritually dead and must be brought to newness of life, during this process.

My Uncle Ron was raised as a young boy until about the age of 18 in the Catholic Church. He had a firm belief that God was real and existed and he believed this. On his 18th birthday he received via the mail his Draft Card to serve a one year term in Vietnam.

So when the dates arrived he loaded the bus and became enlisted in the USA Army. As a short and smaller young man they began training him crawling through culverts pretending to be underground tunnels. He was training and became a Tunnel Rat. So he finally arrived in Nam and began his duty. The things he saw and had to do in those tunnels messed with him severely. He would be sent into a tunnel and maybe it would take him a few days even sometimes a week or more to navigate them. When he would get to the end and it was classified as secured he would get a 2 week leave of absense before being sent into a newly discovered tunnel. And during those 2 weeks of leave the Army smuggled in a variety of illegal drugs and he was blitzed for about 10 days and then spend a few days clearing his mind to do his duties.

One year passed and he reenlisted. Another year passed and he reenlisted. He was so mentally messed up and strung out on drugs he kept enlisting because he was afraid to go back to the States.

Finally the war ended and he was forced to go back home. Before he left he was dating my Aunt and when he returned they married. He began going to my Grandfather's Church he Pastored and for the next 30 years sat and heard the Gospel preached message after message.

My Grandfather passed away and my Dad took over. Eventually my Dad passed away and I took over. Uncle Ron just sat Service after Service, Sermon after Sermon.

One day he needed to go to the VA Hospital and my Aunt asked me to go with him. He never was a talker and would have said nothing the entire way if he had a choice.

But as we were traveling I asked about never seeing him coming to the altar for prayer. I asked him if he believed in God. He basically said he didn't know any more. Here's a man who at one time did believe in God and now he didn't know.

A few Sunday Services passed by and Sunday evening Church is typically when I would preach the heavy messages. I felt God urge me to call him to come up for prayer. He came up and placed my hands on both of his shoulders and began praying. Suddenly tears were running down his cheeks. He was praying. Then he began to cry and I just held him.

He heard the Gospel a 1,000 times preached in a variety of different ways. But he never was awakened. It was when the love from a professing Believer in God was shown and bestowed towards him that he his hearing connected to his emotions.

Had I believed that God predetermined and predestined who spends eternity here or there I would have never made the effort I felt God urge me to do. He would have died and been eternally lost forever.

 

[BillyBob]

It's the cruel hoaxing of the hopeful trusting souls that gets me.

These souls, who, in child-like trust and faith, (also aware that they are being obedient to His command to do so) literally"come" to Jesus (a response to His call by an act of their will), only then to be devastated, discovering later that they have been abandoned to the lake of fire, as they were not a random winner in the pre-birth lottery.

And that God's much advertised goodness and graciousness and forgiveness and fairness is actually cruelty and fickleness and condemnation.

I do not think that anyone here celebrates the fact that some attempt to save themselves. But, it is clear that God tells them : depart from me!

 

[Kroogz]

And that is what I am trying to understand, what actually is considered free will in the context of choice? what makes one able to freely choose vs being a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness?

John 16
7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; 11 and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

 

[cv5]

That is what the Bible teaches. But it is also why the Pelagian heretics throw over much of what is said of unregenerated man in the Bible. He is certainly not the person Scriptures make him out to be according to our free will believers! He willingly comes into the light even though the Bible says he will not. He is not a slave to sin even though the Bible says he is. Jesus said everyone who sins is a slave to sin! Oops, not good enough to our free will believers. Jesus must have been mistaken according to them. It is quite disturbing how many Scriptures routinely get contradicted and outright denied by these heretics. They have that man who is a bad tree bringing froth from the stony heart of his flesh the good fruit of faith when Scripture plainly teaches that stony ground is not good for the Word to take root and grow, and that the flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. Not to mention that Scriptures are also explicit in that salvation is according to the will and desire of God and not according to the will and desire or effort of man.

So what you are trying to say is that those who come to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation are really just shooting the dice? I mean, they will never have assurance of salvation in doing so because their eternal destiny is not the slightest bit contingent upon their trust, faith, actions, will or decisions?

Well I ain't buying it sister. Not for a split second. Because you see.....I know better.

 

[Cameron143]

So, basically charismatic but probably with some limitations for what may be abuses.

Where do you get this concept of euphoric experience from Scripture?

Do you think others who have not experienced something like this, nor ever sought it, are not sealed? And why do you attach this experience to the sealing?

Never thought of myself as charismatic or been to a charismatic church.

John 1:16 and 1 Peter 1:8, particularly the latter, give expression to the euphoric state. There is also the testimony repeatedly in Acts, the testimony of others, and my own personal experience.

A seal is an outward authentication of what is inside. When a king wrote correspondence, wax was poured on the outside and his signet ring sealed the letter. In this way, those who received the letter would know what was inside was from the king. In the same manner, God authenticates to His children that what has occurred to them is indeed from Him. Even others can be convinced as Peter recognizes that Cornelius and his household were attended to of God.

 

[Cameron143]

I already showed you that they had been taught by Apollos ... but Apollos taught John's gospel ... that was all Apollos knew until Priscilla and Aquila "taught him the way of the Lord more perfectly" ... however, Apollos left Ephesus and went to Corinth before he taught the Ephesian believers "more perfectly" ... then Paul came to Ephesus to find the church knew only John's gospel.

The problem is the poorly placed chapter break ... read straight from Acts 18:24 to Acts 19:7 ...


Acts 18:

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.
.

Were they saved when Paul arrived?

 

[BillyBob]

My Uncle Ron was raised as a young boy until about the age of 18 in the Catholic Church. He had a firm belief that God was real and existed and he believed this. On his 18th birthday he received via the mail his Draft Card to serve a one year term in Vietnam.

So when the dates arrived he loaded the bus and became enlisted in the USA Army. As a short and smaller young man they began training him crawling through culverts pretending to be underground tunnels. He was training and became a Tunnel Rat. So he finally arrived in Nam and began his duty. The things he saw and had to do in those tunnels messed with him severely. He would be sent into a tunnel and maybe it would take him a few days even sometimes a week or more to navigate them. When he would get to the end and it was classified as secured he would get a 2 week leave of absense before being sent into a newly discovered tunnel. And during those 2 weeks of leave the Army smuggled in a variety of illegal drugs and he was blitzed for about 10 days and then spend a few days clearing his mind to do his duties.

One year passed and he reenlisted. Another year passed and he reenlisted. He was so mentally messed up and strung out on drugs he kept enlisting because he was afraid to go back to the States.

Finally the war ended and he was forced to go back home. Before he left he was dating my Aunt and when he returned they married. He began going to my Grandfather's Church he Pastored and for the next 30 years sat and heard the Gospel preached message after message.

My Grandfather passed away and my Dad took over. Eventually my Dad passed away and I took over. Uncle Ron just sat Service after Service, Sermon after Sermon.

One day he needed to go to the VA Hospital and my Aunt asked me to go with him. He never was a talker and would have said nothing the entire way if he had a choice.

But as we were traveling I asked about never seeing him coming to the altar for prayer. I asked him if he believed in God. He basically said he didn't know any more. Here's a man who at one time did believe in God and now he didn't know.

A few Sunday Services passed by and Sunday evening Church is typically when I would preach the heavy messages. I felt God urge me to call him to come up for prayer. He came up and placed my hands on both of his shoulders and began praying. Suddenly tears were running down his cheeks. He was praying. Then he began to cry and I just held him.

He heard the Gospel a 1,000 times preached in a variety of different ways. But he never was awakened. It was when the love from a professing Believer in God was shown and bestowed towards him that he his hearing connected to his emotions.

Had I believed that God predetermined and predestined who spends eternity here or there I would have never made the effort I felt God urge me to do. He would have died and been eternally lost forever.

God does work in mysterious ways! It took me a long time, listening to sermon after sermon before becoming a believer. Sometimes it just takes hearing the right message at the right time. God has His own way of drawing those He loves!

 

[Cameron143]

I am pretty sure heishere has griped about God so much we all know she believes God is unfair.

She actually doesn't, but can't reconcile the actions of God in history with her beliefs.

 

[Magenta]

And that is what I am trying to understand, what actually is considered free will in the context of choice? what makes one able to freely choose vs being a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness?

Jesus sets us free. I thought you knew that. Any other considerations regarding choice in this discussion are simply red herrings and unfortunately very much cloud the issue for some who do not know what the discussion is truly about. That is why I say choosing between fries or salad has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul. Those types of mundane choices have no real place in this conversation. The issue is whether or not the unregenerated person can and will make a choice when he is opposed to the things he is choosing and can neither receive not comprehend the things he is deciding to believe as a God hater who refuses to come into the light. The free willer contradicts so many verses it is ridiculous.

 

[Magenta]

She actually doesn't, but can't reconcile the actions of God in history with her beliefs.

She gripes about the god of her understanding all the time, telling us how unfair He is.

 

[Blain]

Jesus sets us free. I thought you knew that. Any other considerations regarding choice in this discussion are simply red herrings and unfortunately very much cloud the issue for some who do not know what the discussion is truly about. That is why I say choosing between fries or salad has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul. Those types of mundane choices have no real place in this conversation.

Of course Jesus sets us free only he sets us free, but if I am to understand correctly the discussion is about free will concerning salvation not every day decisions correct?

So my confusion on free will is about every day decisions then? not salvation itself?

 

[Rufus]

So why would the chosen have to hear anything? They are saved wether they know it or not.

So that the chosen will know that they are in a personal, familial, covenant relationship with the Living God. Is that something you personally would not want to be conscious of?

 

[Magenta]

Of course Jesus sets us free only he sets us free, but if I am to understand correctly the discussion is about free will concerning salvation not every day decisions correct?

So my confusion on free will is about every day decisions then? not salvation itself?

Well you brought choosing between right and wrong into it and even questioned whether Lot's wife was a slave to sin. The issue is really only about whether or not an unregenerated person can choose to believe when Scripture says that person is opposed to the very things he is choosing in the theology of the free willer (many of whom are actually Pelagian heretics). It really does get that simple, but many don't see it. Because even an unsaved person can do what is right in the eyes of the world and yet without faith it is impossible to please God. Oh another thing some free willers do is deny that faith is a gift from God even though Scripture plainly states that all good things come from Him. So their rejection of Scriptures is wide spread.