Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

You're correct, it does.

I clarified in #9,291.

I've never spoken in tongues. I've never been present when someone has done so. I know some people who claim to have done so and experienced others who have done so. Some I trust and do not doubt their testimony.

I believe all the spiritual gifts are operational in the church today.

 

[Cameron143]

Limited Atonement doctrine noted in 3 or so of such recent posts.

I believe atonement was limited to believers. Otherwise, I believe God would be unjust to accept payment for sins in Christ and yet still require additional payment from unbelievers.

 

[Magenta]

Well there are things in scripture that I am curious about, such as the case with cain this would be a good example of free will in action

enesis 4:6-7, where the Lord speaks to Cain after his offering was not accepted. The passage states, "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it

Note how he said he must rule over it, how do you explain this away from Cain having free will to do what is right or wrong? True it is not free will with salvation itself but the mere fact that there seems to be free will in this case says something to me.

Not to mention lot and his wife God commanded that they not look back at the city of sin but his wife did and became a pillar of salt, how in this case was she a slave to sin? she was given a chpoice and paid for that choice

I see. So you are saying you do not believe it when Jesus says those who sin are slaves to sin.

Also, Blain, free will is not about choosing between right and wrong.

Like many who think being able to make choices suddenly allows the wicked heart
of the God hater to choose to believe the gospel when he hears it as foolishness.

I gave you the Scriptures multiple times but you ignored them.

 

[BillyBob]

I think the word giving us problems is believe. I can say from thinking about the word believe that you can coerce someone to say they believe under threat or duress ect ect. However to actually believe that decision has to come from deep inside an individual. I think the belief is man's responsibility. What do you think man's responsibility is in the salvation process.

I honestly think that man, to become save, must believe and trust in the Lord. But, I do not believe that he can do this prior to the work of the Spirit. Man is spiritually dead and must be brought to newness of life, during this process.

 

[cv5]

Amen!
It is absolutely not the TRUE God of the Bible, not even close!!

This has to be a "doctrine" which appeals to the flesh, "special me" I was chosen, I made the cut!
It is quite ironic considering how they go on about the natural man and yet their soteriology is very egotistical.

Question: what does the pre-birth lottery have to do with God's promises/covenants and His faithful keeping of them?

Answer: absolutely nothing.

The doctrinal implications are staggering.

 

[Magenta]

Yes

Just think of all those eight day old boys they must believe had faith before they were circumcised.

 

[studier]

Yes

Cryptic.

3 questions. 1 answer, so yes to all is the assumption.

So, unbelievers are placed into Christ wherein Christ circumcises their hearts before they believe.

I guess you're not of Calvin. He didn't believe this.

Did you come up with this on your own, or were you taught this in your church or elsewhere?

 

[Magenta]

I honestly think that man, to become save, must believe and trust in the Lord. But, I do not believe that he can do this
prior to the work of the Spirit. Man is spiritually dead and must be brought to newness of life, during this process.

That is what the Bible teaches. But it is also why the Pelagian heretics throw over much of what is said of unregenerated man in the Bible. He is certainly not the person Scriptures make him out to be according to our free will believers! He willingly comes into the light even though the Bible says he will not. He is not a slave to sin even though the Bible says he is. Jesus said everyone who sins is a slave to sin! Oops, not good enough to our free will believers. Jesus must have been mistaken according to them. It is quite disturbing how many Scriptures routinely get contradicted and outright denied by these heretics. They have that man who is a bad tree bringing froth from the stony heart of his flesh the good fruit of faith when Scripture plainly teaches that stony ground is not good for the Word to take root and grow, and that the flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. Not to mention that Scriptures are also explicit in that salvation is according to the will and desire of God and not according to the will and desire or effort of man.

 

[HeIsHere]

I believe atonement was limited to believers. Otherwise, I believe God would be unjust to accept payment for sins in Christ and yet still require additional payment from unbelievers.

You know what is really "unjust' pre-selecting some people and and leaving others who hear the Gospel without the magic touch of divine favor.

 

[studier]

I've never spoken in tongues. I've never been present when someone has done so. I know some people who claim to have done so and experienced others who have done so. Some I trust and do not doubt their testimony.

I believe all the spiritual gifts are operational in the church today.

So, basically charismatic but probably with some limitations for what may be abuses.

Where do you get this concept of euphoric experience from Scripture?

Do you think others who have not experienced something like this, nor ever sought it, are not sealed? And why do you attach this experience to the sealing?

 

[studier]

I believe atonement was limited to believers. Otherwise, I believe God would be unjust to accept payment for sins in Christ and yet still require additional payment from unbelievers.

If you will, please explain "accept payment for sins in Christ" and "additional payment from unbelievers".

 

[studier]

I honestly think that man, to become save, must believe and trust in the Lord. But, I do not believe that he can do this prior to the work of the Spirit. Man is spiritually dead and must be brought to newness of life, during this process.

I don't think much of any here believe man can believe apart from the work of the Spirit.

They just don't define His pre-salvation work as you do in your last sentence.

 

[Magenta]

I don't think much of any here believe man can believe apart from the work of the Spirit.

They just don't define His pre-salvation work as you do in your last sentence.

Define much of any. And then re-read 1 Cor 2:14 without rewriting it in your head. And Romans 8:7.

Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It says they were disciples and Paul asked about receiving the Spirit since they believed. He certainly thought they were saved.

I already showed you that they had been taught by Apollos ... but Apollos taught John's gospel ... that was all Apollos knew until Priscilla and Aquila "taught him the way of the Lord more perfectly" ... however, Apollos left Ephesus and went to Corinth before he taught the Ephesian believers "more perfectly" ... then Paul came to Ephesus to find the church knew only John's gospel.

The problem is the poorly placed chapter break ... read straight from Acts 18:24 to Acts 19:7 ...


Acts 18:

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.
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[Cameron143]

You know what is really "unjust' pre-selecting some people and and leaving others who hear the Gospel without the magic touch of divine favor.

God chose to have a people to Himself under the old covenant to the exclusion of all the other nations. Other than a few individuals and a mass salvation event in Ninevah, the main of humanity remained outside of reconciliation with God. Does this make God unjust?

 

[Blain]

I see. So you are saying you do not believe it when Jesus says those who sin are slaves to sin.

Also, Blain, free will is not about choosing between right and wrong.

Like many who think being able to make choices suddenly allows the wicked heart
of the God hater to choose to believe the gospel when he hears it as foolishness.

I gave you the Scriptures multiple times but you ignored them.

No I diddn't ignore them like I said I am looking at this from all aspects. So then if being able to choose from right and wrong is not free will then what is it? what do we call that if not free will? and how does free will differ from being able to choose?

 

[Magenta]

God chose to have a people to Himself under the old covenant to the exclusion of all the other nations. Other than a few individuals and a mass salvation event in Ninevah, the main of humanity remained outside of reconciliation with God. Does this make God unjust?

I am pretty sure heishere has griped about God so much we all know she believes God is unfair.

 

[Magenta]

No I diddn't ignore them like I said I am looking at this from all aspects. So then if being able to choose from right and wrong is not free will then what is it? what do we call that if not free will? and how does free will differ from being able to choose?

You said nothing about them, and did not respond any time i posted them to you. That looks like ignoring to me.

The crux of the free will debate is whether man needs to be reborn first, since the natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God (he is actually opposed to those very things), and the gospel is heard as foolishness. Free willers deny this. They mock the whole idea of being spiritually dead, and also as you know scorn the idea of God revealing Himself to anyone in drawing us with loving kindness. The free willer ascribes to the natural unregenerated man characteristics possessed only by the regenerated man.

 

[BillyBob]

You know what is really "unjust' pre-selecting some people and and leaving others who hear the Gospel without the magic touch of divine favor.

That sounds like something you need to discuss with God!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

In context, this gracious gift from God of belief in Christ and suffering on His behalf is all in the context of the battle for the Gospel of Christ between Christians and their opponents - opponents of the Gospel of Christ.

Although I can see the reasoning of some to take this gracious gift of belief in Christ back to theses Christians' initial belief in Jesus Christ, it's really not the context in which it's being stated.

right ... these believers were not newly born again ... there was an established church with bishop and deacon overseers.

Also, the belief and the suffering are in the present tense which could argue for staying in this context of God graciously providing for the standing fast in unity in continuing belief during suffering on behalf of Jesus Christ for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the advancement and joy [of] the Faith for these Christians that Paul knows he needs to stay on earth and help.

right ... as far as "to believe on Him" ... I believe God continues to work within the born again believer to bring increase to the believer ... I do not believe we receive "more" faith ... I believe God strengthens the faith within. A believer may be strong in faith or weak in faith, depending upon what we do when we "hear" the Word of God. As we believe God's Word, God works within the believer to bring increase (strengthen) faith ... if we do not believe, there is no increase. God doesn't remove faith if/when we do not believe His Word, but He also does not bring increase ... so we may remain weak in faith concerning that Word of God we hear yet do not believe.

As far as "suffering on behalf of Jesus for the Gospel of Jesus Christ" ... God does not hide the fact that we will face certain trials, afflictions, temptation, etc. etc.

In 1 Peter 5:6-11, God tells us that as we are suffering affliction, we are not alone in our suffering ... that many believers are suffering as well, but that He is working in us to perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle us. We may or may not realize God is working within because we are so focussed on what we are going through, but that does not mean God is not working. As we stand firm in faith in our affliction, the devil will eventually flee. The only way we can stand firm is in drawing near to God. When we draw near to Him, He will draw near to us ... He does not leave us alone in our times of trial.

James 1:3 tells us that the trial of our faith works patience. Patience is an ability to endure. As we endure our hardships and trials, God is working within us bring us along. God is so so good to us.
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