Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Don't mind at all. When I say observable, I mean it is experiential. This could mean it is observable to oneself or, in the case of Pentecost and subsequent occurrences in Acts, others may witness it as well. On Pentecost, flames sat over the heads of the apostles. Other times, some prophesied or spoke in tongues. Others magnified the Lord and rejoiced in Him.

None of that occurred with me. I was reading a book called Joy Unspeakable at night when I came home from work. It was written by Martyn Lloyd Jones. In it, he makes the case for the baptism of the Spirit and goes through the book of Acts to make his case. And every night after I read a chapter I prayed and told God that what he was sharing seemed to good to be true, but if it was true that I would like to experience it. This went on for about a week and then one night I felt an explosion of euphoria in every cell of my body. I don't know how long it lasted. I was telling God I didn't understand why He would entreat such a sinner like me and the euphoria would begin to ebb, and as it did I pleaded with Him that it would continue. And the sensation would heighten again. But I was overcome by my sinfulness again and the feeling again ebbed. I'm not sure how long that went on but eventually it was finished and I was fully assured of my salvation and fully contented in Christ.
The same thing occurred 5 nights in a row with the only difference being the intensity of the euphoria. After those 5 nights it has never occurred again, but a much lesser intensity of the euphoria I have known since and am aware often of God's presence in this way.

Thank you for sharing that very interesting experience... One of the reasons it is interesting is because I can relate to that sense of being filled with euphoria in every cell of my body ... but for me it happened many years before I came to believe. The euphoria for me was also very specifically felt as God's unconditional love for me and it did fill my body, like every fiber of my being, from the top of my head to the tips of my toes, and it was a very overpowering experience that made me weep for the knowledge of how unworthy I was of it. And since it did happen for me many years before I came to believe I cannot accept that it was the sealing of the Spirit that I was experiencing, though I would not say that's not what it was for you. I have also heard of that book before and the author but I have never read it. My experience happened after I went to a showing of the life of Christ based on the gospel of Luke at Passover in 1988, at a neighborhood evangelical church that I had never attended before ... and I was not a church goer at that time but my marriage had just ended and I was in a lot of emotional pain and wondering Who Jesus was. My introductory poem in the thread I created in the poetry section when I first joined is about that experience. I thought about God and Jesus a lot at that time in my life but I did not become a believer for 16 more years. Certainly at that point in my life because of what I experienced, I do believe it went some distance in saving my life but I also tell the story by including the fact that I treasured in my heart the knowledge that God loved and forgave me but I walked away from it thinking it's too bad it had to happen in a church.

 

[sawdust]

The condemnation is to eternal death in the Lake of Fire.

Then how did Jesus pay the price? He never went to the lake of fire.

 

[Cameron143]

Thank you for sharing that very interesting experience... One of the reasons it is interesting is because I can relate to that sense of being filled with euphoria in every cell of my body ... but for me it happened many years before I came to believe. The euphoria for me was also very specifically felt as God's unconditional love for me and it did fill my body, like every fiber of my being, from the top of my head to the tips of my toes, and it was a very overpowering experience that made me weep for the knowledge of how unworthy I was of it. And since it did happen for me many years before I came to believe I cannot accept that it was the sealing of the Spirit that I was experiencing, though I would not say that's not what it was for you. I have also heard of that book before and the author but I have never read it. My experience happened after I went to a showing of the life of Christ based on the gospel of Luke at Passover in 1988, at a neighborhood evangelical church that I had never attended before ... and I was not a church goer at that time but my marriage had just ended and I was in a lot of emotional pain and wondering Who Jesus was. My introductory poem in the thread I created in the poetry section when I first joined is about that experience. I thought about God and Jesus a lot at that time in my life but I did not become a believer for 16 more years. Certainly at that point in my life because of what I experienced, I do believe it went some distance in saving my life but I also tell the story by including the fact that I treasured in my heart the knowledge that God loved and forgave me but I walked away from it thinking it's too bad it had to happen in a church.

You received what many refer to as markers. Before getting saved, my kids went through times of "spiritual disturbance". A sort of time where they were burdened by their sins that led to prayer and repentance, but no sense of freedom from sin. Others have been convicted to answer altar calls without a real change of heart. I even recall a euphoric experience in the 8th grade at a confirmation service. When the priest applied the oil to my forehead I felt euphoria and felt like I was floating instead of walking back to the pew. There's much more happening in the spiritual realm than many are aware of.

 

[Cameron143]

Then how did Jesus pay the price? He never went to the lake of fire.

Jesus is God. On the cross He endured the punishment for all believers equal to the wrath God would have poured out on us had we not been saved.

 

[Magenta]

You received what many refer to as markers. Before getting saved, my kids went through times of "spiritual disturbance". A sort of time where they were burdened by their sins that led to prayer and repentance, but no sense of freedom from sin. Others have been convicted to answer altar calls without a real change of heart. I even recall a euphoric experience in the 8th grade at a confirmation service. When the priest applied the oil to my forehead I felt euphoria and felt like I was floating instead of walking back to the pew. There's much more happening in the spiritual realm than many are aware of.

I did a lot of exploring of spiritual things but was not keen on anything Biblical and was
in fact trying to put distance between myself and those things related to the Bible.
And of course after becoming a believer I find out my attitude was very much what
the Bible describes and which our free will pushers contradict and deny.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus is God. On the cross He endured the punishment for all believers equal to the wrath God would have poured out on us had we not been saved.

But if our sins deserved the lake of fire in order for Jesus to endure the punishment then He had to endure the lake of fire but He didn't. So either He didn't pay for our sins OR the lake of fire was not the punishment we deserved for our sins.

So how do you answer?

 

[Cameron143]

But if our sins deserved the lake of fire in order for Jesus to endure the punishment then He had to endure the lake of fire but He didn't. So either He didn't pay for our sins OR the lake of fire was not the punishment we deserved for our sins.

So how do you answer?

What Jesus suffered on the cross was equal to the wrath of God against all the sins of believers. In other words, Jesus on the cross paid an eternity of wrath for every believer. This is why only God can be a Savior for mankind. Jesus needed to be human to represent us, and God to actually bear the wrath of God on our behalf.

The Lake of Fire is just the place where humans are cast to suffer God's wrath. Jesus need not suffer there in order to assuage God's wrath on our behalf.

 

[sawdust]

What Jesus suffered on the cross was equal to the wrath of God against all the sins of believers. In other words, Jesus on the cross paid an eternity of wrath for every believer. This is why only God can be a Savior for mankind. Jesus needed to be human to represent us, and God to actually bear the wrath of God on our behalf.

The Lake of Fire is just the place where humans are cast to suffer God's wrath. Jesus need not suffer there in order to assuage God's wrath on our behalf.

He had to pay the penalty of our sin or He didn't pay the penalty. The wrath of God in the lake of fire is eternal. Christ did not suffer God's wrath eternally. The punishment had to fit the crime. You don't have that, instead you have a made up limited wrath that doesn't fit the bill.

If the punishment for sin is eternal death then Christ had to pay with eternal death, He did not therefore, the punishment for sin is not eternal death but spiritual death (dead in our sin) and cut off from God within the limitations of time and space for this is what Christ suffered.

 

[studier]

Great post @studier.
Philippians 1:12
Now I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel,

The calvies will have us focused on "Given belief." But the overall context is suffering for the sake of Christ.......For the PROGRESS OF THE GOSPEL.

The calvies hinder and deter the progress of the Gospel with their false doctrine and interpretation of the verse.

Thanks, Kroogz.

As I recall, this reminds me of Thieme's extensive teaching on testing and suffering for blessing. God gives such things for many reasons, one of them being to graciously provide rewardable service, which we can see taking place in Phil1 in the fellowship between Paul and these Christians in the struggles for the Gospel and in his language about their advancement and joy in the Faith.

Another thing I didn't mention and couldn't due to the system's limited editing time. is that the word in Phil1:29 being translated as "granted" is "charizomai" (graciously given) which is related to "charis" (grace) and to "charisma" (gift - what is graciously given) - such as "charisma-gifts" of the Spirit (Spiritual Gifts) 1Cor12:4-10 one of which is "pistis-faith-belief" 1Cor12:9 for the diverse workings of the members of the Body of Christ.

As I said, I can see why some interpret Phil1:29 as they do, and in a sense all from God is a gift, but the entire context in Phil1 is what God is doing in Christians to fight for the Gospel. And the same Paul in 1Cor12 explains how belief-faith is specially gifted to Christians for the work God graciously gifts to Christ's Body to do His will on the earth for which He will reward them.

 

[studier]

I would argue that those who Paul was speaking to in the first century did, but I didn't experience sealing until I was saved for 5 years. Acts 19 records a similar group who had believed but hadn't experienced the sealing of the Holy Spirit. I would also argue that there are many, many Christians today who have not experienced the sealing of the Holy Spirit or even know it's available or what it is.

So, you're Reformed. Are you also charismatic?

 

[studier]

I would argue that those who Paul was speaking to in the first century did, but I didn't experience sealing until I was saved for 5 years. Acts 19 records a similar group who had believed but hadn't experienced the sealing of the Holy Spirit. I would also argue that there are many, many Christians today who have not experienced the sealing of the Holy Spirit or even know it's available or what it is.

So, you're Reformed. Are you also charismatic?

I read your other posts re: this. No mention of tongues. Did or do you go there also?

 

[HeIsHere]

Have you ever met a more dismal, depressing, negative, accusatory, and whiney cast of characters in all of your travels that compare?

It's just an awful state of mind. I pity them.

Never, but they reveal it often, soon as one shine's a light on their morally ambivalent god and incoherent system then all the negativity comes out.

They have a god who randomly pre-selects people for salvation, mostly those in the Reformed church!

Total despairing philosophy,
Unconscionable theology with a morally ambivalent god
Limited grace and love, mostly hate
Irrational soteriology
Perseverance against the Gospel for all

 

[HeIsHere]

Have you determined the root cause of this gloomy bitterness and malcontent?

I'm sure @HeIsHere has.

No assurance of salvation. Because it doesn't exist in super-determinists soteriology manual.

I think that is certainly part of it.

 

[HeIsHere]

The super-determinist God of unpredictability and impossibility is not the True God of the Bible.

I have lost count of the times our super-determinist crew has used the term "cannot" as a means to deny the simple notion of anyone in child-like faith asking Jesus for salvation.....and being fully assured of receiving what you asked for. For the simple reason that Jesus is utterly predictable in being faithful to keep His word and will certainly do it.

Amen!
It is absolutely not the TRUE God of the Bible, not even close!!

This has to be a "doctrine" which appeals to the flesh, "special me" I was chosen, I made the cut!
It is quite ironic considering how they go on about the natural man and yet their soteriology is very egotistical.

 

[Cameron143]

He had to pay the penalty of our sin or He didn't pay the penalty. The wrath of God in the lake of fire is eternal. Christ did not suffer God's wrath eternally. The punishment had to fit the crime. You don't have that, instead you have a made up limited wrath that doesn't fit the bill.

If the punishment for sin is eternal death then Christ had to pay with eternal death, He did not therefore, the punishment for sin is not eternal death but spiritual death (dead in our sin) and cut off from God within the limitations of time and space for this is what Christ suffered.

Christ is eternal and omnipotent. Is there a payment He cannot make? If the payment for sin is an eternity in the Lake of Fire for an individual, then that is what Jesus must pay for each individual He saves. I don't understand how it worked, but in those 3 hours on the cross, He paid that punishment for every believer. If He hadn't, God's wrath would not have been satisfied. We would all still be dead in our sins.

 

[Cameron143]

So, you're Reformed. Are you also charismatic?

What do you mean by charismatic? The word conjures up a variety of meanings.

 

[studier]

I believe it is the circumcision of the heart that creates in an individual a new nature, and the new nature which allows the freedom to understand and pursue God.

To clarify, even though you've previously explained this to varying degrees.

Circumcision of the heart precedes Faith, correct?

Assuming yes:

• Do you see any typology in Abraham which was God approaching and speaking to him > Abraham has Faith > Abraham circumcised?
• In the NC, Paul says to Christians: NKJ Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
  • Clearly per this translation this took place "in Him-Christ" & "by Christ" so you're saying unbelievers were put into Christ so they could be circumcised in heart so they could believe in Christ?

 

[studier]

What do you mean by charismatic? The word conjures up a variety of meanings.

You're correct, it does.

I clarified in #9,291.

 

[studier]

Christ is eternal and omnipotent. Is there a payment He cannot make? If the payment for sin is an eternity in the Lake of Fire for an individual, then that is what Jesus must pay for each individual He saves. I don't understand how it worked, but in those 3 hours on the cross, He paid that punishment for every believer. If He hadn't, God's wrath would not have been satisfied. We would all still be dead in our sins.

Limited Atonement doctrine noted in 3 or so of such recent posts.

 

[Cameron143]

To clarify, even though you've previously explained this to varying degrees.

Circumcision of the heart precedes Faith, correct?

Assuming yes:

• Do you see any typology in Abraham which was God approaching and speaking to him > Abraham has Faith > Abraham circumcised?
• In the NC, Paul says to Christians: NKJ Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
  • Clearly per this translation this took place "in Him-Christ" & "by Christ" so you're saying unbelievers were put into Christ so they could be circumcised in heart so they could believe in Christ?

Yes