Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

The sad fact is that no man deserves God's grace and mercy, but He provides it to some!

Actually every human being has experienced miracles and the unexpected that was done by the Grace and Mercy of God. The Natural Man might classify it as a fluke, luck, coincidence but ultimately it's the Grace and Mercy of Almighty God that created their miracle.

 

[Cameron143]

That had to have been either CV5 or Genez who compete against one another to see how low they can go by twisting God's Word. They don't know that God only loves (in the familial, covenant sense) the righteous (Ps 146:8).

It wasn't either of those two.

 

[Rufus]

cv5 said:


I also notice a lot of smoldering dislike/distain for our elder brothers the nation Israel. Whom God loves with an eternal perfect love. [/ quote]

A couple of things: First, the mostly apostate nation of Israel is not my brother. Only God-fearing Jews with circumcised hearts are my brothers and sisters. But I'm not surprised that you would cozy up to apostates.

Secondly, explain to me how God's love for national Israel could possibly be eternal in light of these thee passages:

Dan 12:2
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
NIV

So, God loves those for whom he also has contempt?

And,

Isa 66:24
24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
NIV

Not even saints will love their "neighbors" in the Lake of Fire!

Finally,

Matt 7:23
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers!'
NIV

To truly love someone personally and intimately with familial, covenantal kind of love requires deep personal, intimate knowledge of the objects of that love, such as what a Groom would have for his Bride. So, even though God never had a personal covenant relationship with the above "evildoers", we're supposed to believe that he nonetheless loved them for all eternity?

Moreover, the Lord's sharp command to "depart" from him is for all practical intent and purposes the same thing as driving them from His Holy Presence -- just the way God drove Adam from Garden. In both cases sinners are separated from God's Presence. But you say that God eternally loves evildoers just as He does the righteous (Ps 146:8).

 

[Rufus]

If man has no free will?
Then, God failed to make man in His image.

Having a free will means one can mess up his life.
Omnipotence and omnipresence... and omniscience on the other hand, does not need to concern oneself with one's choices.
We do.

As usual, you get it all backwards. Man is made in God's image for what controls the wills of God and man are their natures. Are you going to deny that God's will isn't free because it is constrained by His holy nature which is why He cannot sin? Likewise, man's will is constrained by his evil nature which is why he cannot not sin.

It you FWers who unwittingly and implicitly deny that God made man in his image, since you have man doing something that even God cannot do!

 

[HeIsHere]

It's already been provided by several of us. Guess you missed it.

Oh really and the verse was exegeted looking at the words in Greek, analyzing the grammar, and in context.

As well, looking the meaning of the individual words by examining contemporaneous text to be sure that the correct meaning is applied.

Yes I did miss that.

 

[rogerg]

Oh really and the verse was exegeted looking at the words in Greek, analyzing the grammar, and in context.

As well, looking the meaning of the individual words by examining contemporaneous text to be sure that the correct meaning is applied.

Yes I did miss that.

Well, you go through them, and should you find something that based upon your examination of the words you disagree
with, post me and we'll discuss then. How's that? You don't get to set the terms of the discussion.

 

[Rufus]

False. Truly vast portions of Scripture proves otherwise.

Nope. The New Covenant ended the exclusive national covenantal relationship God had with the nation of Israel. The relationship God has now with mankind includes individuals from all nations who are spiritual descendants of Abraham. EVERYTHING under the Eternal New Covenant has been expanded. Even Israel's land promise that God made with Abraham has been expanded to cover the entire earth. God's Holy Presence will no longer be confined to a mere physical temple but instead his Glory will literally fill the entire earth since He will be the saints' Temple. The Garden of Eden will no longer cover a small portion of the earth; instead, it will encompass the entire earth, etc., etc.

 

[Magenta]

Oh really and the verse was exegeted looking at the words in Greek, analyzing the grammar, and in context.

As well, looking the meaning of the individual words by examining contemporaneous text to be sure that the correct meaning is applied.

Yes I did miss that.

Laughable. You almost never provide such in your responses, but others are supposed to? Just more of your hypocrisy.

Mocking and scorning and trying to shame those who believe what the Bible actually says is often all you offer.

That is, when you are not busy contradicting and outright denying what is explicitly written in the Bible.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, you go through them, and should you find something that based upon your examination of the words you disagree
with, post me and we'll discuss then. How's that? You don't get to set the terms of the discussion.

Of course, why follow the standard set by people who are trained in hermeneutics and exegeting text, best to make it up as we go along and change it up when needed.

 

[Magenta]

Of course, why follow the standard set by people who are trained in hermeneutics and exegeting text, best to make it up as we go along and change it up when needed.

You are kidding, right? Their posts show that they practice eisegesis and not exegesis.

Of course their conclusions agree with your bent to Pelagian heresy so naturally you agree with their methods.

 

[Rufus]

I think your brain is too small.

It is God who has decided to make man's will an issue. How can God be at the mercy of man when it is the Lord God who has made the decision? When one believes in the truth of God, they are doing exactly what the Lord ordained and He, in His grace and mercy, saves.

Actually, God made man's HEART THE PRIMARY issue in scripture; for the desires of man, which drive our will, reside in our heart which is the control center of our personhood. Even the ungodly worldlings recognize this truth and know more than you do! There are reasons why people call others "good-hearted" or "kind-hearted", etc.

Maybe you should go for a brain scan to see why you cannot wrap your mind around what I just wrote. Maybe something as simple as a tire pump could expand the size of your brain?

 

[rogerg]

Of course, why follow the standard set by people who are trained in hermeneutics and exegeting text, best to make it up as we go along and change it up when needed.

Says you. So, does that mean you refuse to go through them to identify for us where exactly you disagree?
I'll be happy to reply

 

[Magenta]

Actually, God made man's HEART THE PRIMARY issue in scripture; for the desires of man, which drive our will,
reside in our heart which is the control center of our personhood. Even the ungodly worldlings recognize this
truth and know more than you do! There are reasons why people call others "good-hearted" or "kind-hearted", etc.

Maybe you should go for a brain scan to see why you cannot wrap your mind around what I just wrote.
Maybe something as simple as a tire pump could expand the size of your brain?

Proverbs 4 v 20-23 My son, pay attention to my words; incline your ear to my sayings. Do not lose sight of them; keep them within your heart. For they are life to those who find them, and health to the whole body. Guard your heart with all diligence, for from it flow springs of life.

 

[rogerg]

I'll be offline for part of the remainder of the day of the day due to personal commitments. I'll try to
check for posts later.

 

[Magenta]

Actually, God made man's HEART THE PRIMARY issue in scripture; for the desires of man, which drive our will,
reside in our heart which is the control center of our personhood. Even the ungodly worldlings recognize this
truth and know more than you do! There are reasons why people call others "good-hearted" or "kind-hearted", etc.

Maybe you should go for a brain scan to see why you cannot wrap your mind around what
I just wrote. Maybe something as simple as a tire pump could expand the size of your brain?

The Pelagian heretic prefers denying what Jesus said about salvation being impossible with man, that it is a matter of God's will and desire and not according to the desire and will of man... definitely not a fruit of the flesh which serves the law of sin, despite what the heretics teach, having the stony heart which is opposed to the spiritual things of God deciding to believe what they hear as foolishness since they can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God and are actually God haters, hostile in their minds towards Him.

Romans 8 v 6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

 

[Rufus]

I have no room for boasting. You, however have much to boast about, and you do frequently. "Look at me, I chose God! Poor you, you didn't. I'm better than you."

Exactly right! What makes the difference between one who accepts the gospel and one who doesn't are their respective efficacious "freewills". FWers definitely love to brag on themselves.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Red Herring.

nope ... sigh ... here's the discussion:

Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is non-meritorious......It is the same "work" all of us MUST do to be saved.

"work" is "meritorious."

I never said faith was work OR meritorious.

Kroogz: Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is non-meritorious......It is the same "work" all of us MUST do to be saved.

NightTwister: "work" is "meritoriuos"


Romans 4 makes clear that believing is not "work" ... nor is it "meritorious"


"meritorious" ... deserving reward or praise (from Oxford Languages).

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

vs 4 = to him that works, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt = "meritorious"

vs 5 = to him that works not, but believes on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness = not of works



2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
.

 

[Magenta]

Exactly right! What makes the difference between one who accepts the gospel and one who
doesn't are their respective efficacious "freewills". FWers definitely love to brag on themselves.

Yes. They have the man who can neither receive/accept nor comprehend the spiritual things
of God (to which he is opposed) deciding to believe that which is heard as foolishness to him.
Really makes no sense unless they themselves are in the habit of choosing to believe what they
perceive to be nonsense. Maybe they do and that would explain it in part. In their theology, man
is not a rational being after all. But then why would they put so much energy and vitriol into
denying the depravity of man? Gosh. They make no sense no matter how one tries to view them.

 

[Rufus]

The natural man can not understand the Bible doctrine teachings that should follow salvation.

But, he sure as all heck can know he is a sinner.
He can surely believe that someone called Jesus died on a Cross for his sins without understanding the spiritual aspect.
Look at all the evidence we see that Jesus existed!
That is not "spiritual stuff."

The natural man can not know that Jesus is also God.
That must come only later after regeneration gets a solid grip on his soul.

The natural man can not understand the teachings designed to feed the born again believer.
That is what that passage speaks of.

Many of the pagans had not a shadow of a doubt that they were sinners.
That is knowledge of the natural.
The unregenerate can not digest them.

Why wouldn't "natural man" know he's a sinner? Can he run and hide from himself? Can he rip from his heart the works of the law which God has implanted into everyone's hearts? But man is very good at searing his own God-given conscience to make it hard and callous.

 

[cv5]

Nope. The New Covenant ended the exclusive national covenantal relationship God had with the nation of Israel. The relationship God has now with mankind includes individuals from all nations who are spiritual descendants of Abraham. EVERYTHING under the Eternal New Covenant has been expanded. Even Israel's land promise that God made with Abraham has been expanded to cover the entire earth. God's Holy Presence will no longer be confined to a mere physical temple but instead his Glory will literally fill the entire earth since He will be the saints' Temple. The Garden of Eden will no longer cover a small portion of the earth; instead, it will encompass the entire earth, etc., etc.

Aaahhhmmm no.

The Israelite ***nation*** will be ushered INTO the New Covenant when they accept their Savior at the SC. And THEN they will faithfully and fully serve the purpose to which they were originally assigned: Ministering to the gentiles.

You see, the unique Church per se is "one and done". Starts at Pentecost ends at the rapture. And the Church (the Bride) is a SUBSET of the greater set.....those of the "first resurrection". Of which there are several subsets.

[Hos 5:15 KJV] 15 I will go [and] return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

[Hos 6:1 KJV] 1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

[Hos 6:2 KJV] 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.