Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Having paid for the sins of the many who believed?
Leads to what?

A fortiori -

Because of the paying for the sins of the whole world?
That has to be true!

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2​

God always knew that a naturally stubborn believer will be stubborn about giving up his trusted defense mechanism of stubbornness.

For if all else fails?"

Get stubborn!

........
 
Cameron143 said:
No need. The 3 verses I gave are definitive. You can join Chubby Checker and keep twisting if you like.
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;) ..... We're not twisting!

It's you who are being caught in limbo!


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Cameron143 said:
It's notable that when Jesus prays His high priestly prayer in John 17, He specifically says He isn't praying for the world
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when you continue reading the prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ, you see that He did pray for the world




Cameron143 said:
but for those given to Him and those who will believe. This limits His prayer to believers only.
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the prayer is not limited to believers ... the prayer is that believers would preach the gospel of Christ to unbelievers ...

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

God sent Jesus into the world ...

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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2 Peter 3 v 15-16 ~ Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
 
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studier said:
Beside the theological traditions needing things to fit a certain structure, one of the things I think is being missed is that Jesus is eschatologically undoing the fall of all creation, ridding it of sin and death. The scope is vast and not just about us.
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All of creation is eagerly waiting ...

Romans 8:19-22 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
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reneweddaybyday said:
when you continue reading the prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ, you see that He did pray for the world





the prayer is not limited to believers ... the prayer is that believers would preach the gospel of Christ to unbelievers ...

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

God sent Jesus into the world ...

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
.
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He prayed for those who would believe in Him as a result of the disciples ministry. While they were unbelievers at that point, Jesus wasn't praying for all to believe, but for those who would believe. Big difference.
 
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@GRACE_ambassador As I said, just wondering how A Righteous God Holds the lost responsible for "what they
do not understand"? (cp "...being understood..." Romans 1:20 AV) while they knew god they glorified him not

Although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to
Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
not only that ... but the Lord Jesus Christ was praying to His Father. His prayer starts in vs 2 and ends in vs 26 ... to rip one verse out of the prayer and hold it up as if that was the end of His prayer is shamefully poor workmanship (2 Tim 2:15).

check out John 17:20-21 ... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


gotta be on guard ...

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
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Seems to me the that the super-determinists are super determined to DENY that salvation is available (to all) whenever the opportunity arises. For example their many replies on this thread.

I think the whole effort is absolutely crazy train nuts. And to call yourself a Christian while doing so make matters that much worse.
 
Cameron143 said:
He prayed for those who would believe in Him as a result of the disciples ministry. While they were unbelievers at that point, Jesus wasn't praying for all to believe, but for those who would believe. Big difference.
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John 17:18-23 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


He prayed that those who believe in Him would be one ... the Father in the Son ... the Son in the Father ... the believers one in us ... that the world may know that Thou hast sent me .

knowing does not equal believing ... it's only in believing that one is saved.

An unbeliever reading this thread ... would he or she know that the believers who post in this thread are one in us ??? ... would the unbelieving reader know that Thou [God] hast sent Me [the Lord Jesus Christ] ??? ... I don't think so ... not the way some treat their fellow brothers and sisters ... feeding the flesh, but is a poor witness on those who engage in such behavior ...
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cv5 said:
Seems to me the that the super-determinists are super determined to DENY that salvation is available (to all) whenever the opportunity arises. For example their many replies on this thread.

I think the whole effort is absolutely crazy train nuts. And to call yourself a Christian while doing so make matters that much worse.
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right ... presuming to know what was in the heart of the Lord Jesus Christ ... His last prayer before He was taken to be crucified.

Ephesians 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

The love of Christ surpasses knowledge ... and if we do not have the love of Christ ... we are lacking ... we are not filled with all the fullness of God.
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reneweddaybyday said:
when you continue reading the prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ, you see that He did pray for the world





the prayer is not limited to believers ... the prayer is that believers would preach the gospel of Christ to unbelievers ...

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

God sent Jesus into the world ...

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
.
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Eh!?~ ;) Minor detail! :giggle:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved. "

John 3:17

.​
 
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Rufus said:
More lies that totally misrepresent the Reformed position. Reformed folks see God in a thoroughly biblical way: As the Supreme, Holy, Righteous and Good Ruler of the Universe -- which obviously you do not. You think that man shares the spotlight with God Almighty and that His will is contingent on man's! Man is truly the pilot of his ship and God is merely the co-pilot, basing his choices on the pilot's!
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You fail to see that is it God who made man's will contingent in salvation. It is He who has declared salvation is contingent upon believing. God does not do what He calls you to do and He does not have to save you first for you to do it.

You're problem is you think God has made the Gospel so "mystically convoluted" and so "heavenly upward minded" that the natural man cannot fathom when shown by grace who's right and who's wrong and that the judgement we should have copped was borne by another. Far too spiritual a notion as far as you are concerned.

It's your inability to fully comprehend both God and man that leaves you floundering in the dust of your own making and you try to rise above it by forcing those around you down. It is sad to watch.

ps. you mucked up the quote again. sorted it for ya. ;)
 
reneweddaybyday said:
check out John 17:20-21 ... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Click to expand...

reneweddaybyday said:
John 17:18-23 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


He prayed that those who believe in Him would be one ... the Father in the Son ... the Son in the Father ... the believers one in us ... that the world may know that Thou hast sent me .
Click to expand...

Thanks for doing this work. It's pretty interesting what some try to do with what you're dealing with here & with the word "world".
 
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Jesus' words in John 15 verse 19 and John 14 verse 17 ~ If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
 
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