Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

John 17:18-23 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


He prayed that those who believe in Him would be one ... the Father in the Son ... the Son in the Father ... the believers one in us ... that the world may know that Thou hast sent me .

knowing does not equal believing ... it's only in believing that one is saved.

An unbeliever reading this thread ... would he or she know that the believers who post in this thread are one in us ??? ... would the unbelieving reader know that Thou [God] hast sent Me [the Lord Jesus Christ] ??? ... I don't think so ... not the way some treat their fellow brothers and sisters ... feeding the flesh, but is a poor witness on those who engage in such behavior ...
.

The verse literally says Jesus prays for those who will believe on His name. The mental gymnastics going on is simply incredible.

 

[Kroogz]

A fortiori -
..[/QUOTE]

Maybe go into this a bit more? It's a remarkable truth and statement. And KILLS calvies theology.

ROM 5:15 "But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more [pollos mallon] did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."

 

[Kroogz]

Having paid for the sins of the many who believed?
Leads to what?

A fortiori -



........

Take a deeper dive into this? It KILLS the calvies theology.

ROM 5:15 "But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more [pollos mallon] did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."

 

[Cameron143]

The verse literally says Jesus prays for those who will believe on His name. The mental gymnastics going on is simply incredible.

Not to mention that Jesus literally says He prays not for the world.

So Jesus says He prays not for the world and He prays for those who will believe as a result of the disciples ministry, but that means He is praying for the world and not the disciples and those who will believe.

Twistin'. Twistin'. Twistin' the night away.

 

[Rufus]

It worked out fine when Paul was later sent to Asia (Acts19). Don't think exclusion. Think timing.

I'm sure the ones who didn't hear the gospel for all those years that ensued between Acts 16-19, and who died before Paul made to Asia, and are now in hell in torment are thinking exclusion since that prohibition in Acts 16 didn't work out fine for them.

 

[Rufus]

Which you still must jump up, to try to grasp.
It must hang low to meet you where you are at.
Otherwise, it would be too high for you to reach.

Quit projecting your viper dust-eating, belly-crawling unto me. I'm not one who exalts man above the Sovereign Creator, King and Lord of the Universe.

 

[Rufus]

Having paid for the sins of the many who believed?
Leads to what?

A fortiori -

Because of the paying for the sins of the whole world?
That has to be true!

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2​

God always knew that a naturally stubborn believer will be stubborn about giving up his trusted defense mechanism of stubbornness.

For if all else fails?"

Get stubborn!

........

More eisegesis! The text doesn't say "and for the sins of the rest of the world". John excluded himself and the rest of the Jewish believers he wrote to from the "whole world".

 

[Genez]

So God is at the mercy of men.

Explain how you can think that, please.
Where are you getting that notion from?

How would God be at the mercy of men?
Is God a horny teenage boy begging a pretty girl to kiss him?

What are you THINKING!?

 

[Rufus]

Thanks for doing this work. It's pretty interesting what some try to do with what you're dealing with here & with the word "world".

So how come Jesus didn't pray for the world that would come to believe in Him (Jn 17:21)?

 

[Rufus]

Explain how you can think that, please.
Where are you getting that notion from?

How would God be at the mercy of men?
Is God a horny teenage boy begging a pretty girl to kiss him?

What are you THINKING!?

So you're saying that God's will is not contingent on his moral creatures' will? God's hands aren't tied. God is truly a Monarch and does whatsoever He pleases, and has compassion on whom he pleases, and has mercy on who he pleases and Christ gives life to whomsoever He pleases, and He reveals the Father to whomsoever He pleases?

 

[Magenta]

The verse literally says Jesus prays for those who will believe on His name. The mental gymnastics going on is simply incredible.

gymnast

 

[Genez]

Quit projecting your viper dust-eating, belly-crawling unto me. I'm not one who exalts man above the Sovereign Creator, King and Lord of the Universe.

And, then she said....​

Children, go to bed!​

While they laughed with the covers pulled over their heads.​

​

It was such a peaceful town... ​

Till, one day, Rufus came around.​

​

Determined that it will be his way.​

Or... You'will all will be wearing a frown. ​

​

So, Rumor has it...​

Rufus later became a Christmas Santa, standing on a corner ringing his bell.​

​

Shouting out... "Merry Christmas!" ​

But, better be doing it My Way!​

​

You better be! ​

.........You better be! ​

Or... you can all go to hell!​

​

the end.​

​

​

​

Ring that bell, Rufus!​

​

​

 

[Genez]

More eisegesis! The text doesn't say "and for the sins of the rest of the world". John excluded himself and the rest of the Jewish believers he wrote to from the "whole world".

Are you well?
You accuse me of eisegesis?
While you are doing just that?

Here is what it says!

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2

How was he excluding himself??????

He plainly said...

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,

Sounds like your brain flipped into a...

"DOES NOT COMPUTE!
"DOES NOT COMPUTE!
"DOES NOT COMPUTE!

... mode.



​

 

[cv5]

[Heb 11:31 KJV] 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Simple.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The verse literally says Jesus prays for those who will believe on His name. The mental gymnastics going on is simply incredible.

no mental gymnastics ... just reading the full text ... Jesus specifically tells us the reason ... that the world may know that Thou [God] hast sent Me [the Lord Jesus Christ]. This is speaking of all descendants of Adam.

knowing does not equal believing. Jesus prayed that the world may know that God sent the Lord Jesus Christ. He and He alone is the Savior of the world. Those who suppress the truth in righteousness shall not partake of the salvation found only in the Lord Jesus Christ.

you are free to close your eyes to the full prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ if you want.
.

 

[cv5]

Quit projecting your viper dust-eating, belly-crawling unto me. I'm not one who exalts man above the Sovereign Creator, King and Lord of the Universe.

Sovereign King Jesus created the one and only gospel truth proclaimed to the ends of the earth with the express purpose of insuring that no one could (or would!) believe it?

Get outta here.

 

[Genez]

You make the error that many do by conflating having a choice with having free will.

Your concept for free will equates to man making himself to be as God.
For, only God can do all as He wants.
And, choose all as He pleases.

In contrast to God:
We have been given a domain with boundaries to live in.
Within that domain, we have been given authority to use our volition.

The domain of fallen man, with his fallen power, has no means to know God.

That does not mean man has has no power to know things about God.
Knowing those things does not mean he will believe them.
But, he does have the power to wish he could believe them....

It is that wish to believe them that God takes note of.

 

[cv5]

So God is at the mercy of men. Your God is too small.

False of course. But what is worse is that you and your kind think that this must mean a pre-birth lottery and an inscrutable gospel message.

Bizarre indeed.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Precious friends, just wondering how the "deceived" (totally depraved) can
not understand God's Truth, and "had NO free will" to either accept/BELIEVE
or reject/not believe It?:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they​

received not The Love of The Truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God​

Shall Send them Strong Delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might​

be damned who believed not The Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."​

(2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 AV)​

Just wondering: how A Righteous God Holds the lost responsible for
"what they do not understand"? (cp "...being understood..." Romans 1:20 AV)

Amen.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Not to mention that Jesus literally says He prays not for the world.

rolleyes ... only in the portion of His prayer wherein He prayed for His disciples ... and again ... His full prayer is contained in the whole chapter ... not just one verse.

So Jesus says He prays not for the world and He prays for those who will believe as a result of the disciples ministry, but that means He is praying for the world and not the disciples and those who will believe.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

the unity within the body of believers ... which is glaringly absent in this thread ... that unity within the body is a witness to the world that God sent His Son ... and in our day and time ...

Ephesians 3:9-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

where is this unity? you claim "Jesus is Lord" ... where is the proof ? ... are we really exhibiting to principalities and powers in heavenly places the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord ?

Twistin'. Twistin'. Twistin' the night away.

I'll join your little "game" ... the ones who are "Twistin'. Twistin'. Twistin' the night away" are the ones who are "Blinded By the Light" when it comes to the fullness of Scripture ...

like not taking into consideration the full prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 17.

like changing the focus of the parable of the samaritan from what it is to be a good neighbor to what is not the point Jesus was focused on ... which is why we see such carnal behavior in the pages of this thread.

like turning a blind eye to the full meaning of katallassō

those who rip verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them ... manipulating the text and thereby rendering meaningless that which the Author gave meaning ... ignoring what is written for whatever reason ... smh ...
.