Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

It funny. I listed 3 verses that teach that Jesus only paid for the sins of many and not all...Matthew 20:28, that His blood was shed for many and not all...Matthew 26:28, and that on the cross Jesus bore the sins of many and not all...Hebrews 9:28, but somehow people still believe Jesus paid for the sins of all humanity throughout history. If one can't accept what the Bible clearly teaches unequivocally, how then are they to understand more challenging passages where the meaning is not so obvious?

I wonder how FWers' mythical universal atonement heresy worked out for the folks living in Asia in Paul's day (Act 16:6)?

 

[studier]

Romans5 - all and many

Adam:

NKJ Rom5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

NKJ Rom5:15a But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died,

NKJ Rom5:18a Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,

NKJ Rom5:19a For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,

Jesus Christ:

NKJ Rom5:15b much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

NKJ Rom5:18b even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

NKJ Rom5:19b so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

 

[Rufus]

Who Does the Choosing?

The phrase “few are chosen” does not imply that God is selectively choosing a few from among the invited. Instead, it reflects the response of the invitees themselves. The Greek phrase ὀλίγοι ἐκλεκτοί (“few are chosen”) consists of two adjectives functioning as nouns, emphasizing the number of those who actually responded properly to the invitation.

Thus, the “choosing” in this context refers to those who chose to attend the banquet with the proper heart and preparation. The parable emphasizes that being called or invited by God does not automatically grant entrance to the Kingdom; it requires a willing and appropriate response from those invited.

What load of horse manure. First off, the terms in the text rendered "many", "few" and "elect" are all adjectives, in the nominative case, plural in number and masculine in gender.

Also, your interpretation outright contradicts the Parable of the Banquet in LK 14.

Other than these little minor details, you're good to go -- quite possibly to where you won't want to.

 

[BillyBob]

Man has trouble understanding how 1) God is merciful and at the same time 2) God is just.
I must admit that this is a troubling concept for all men. But, the truth is that we often do not see things in the same way as God.
Therefore, it might be comforting/helpful for us to see that there is NO MAN who deserves mercy, for all have sinned! However, God is merciful in that He has chosen some to be His people. These people are no better or worse than others. But, they will receive His mercy.
At the same time, we have a just God who will not forgive the sins of those who are not chosen. It would be better had they not been born!
As we see this playing out in the world we live in, it is best that we remember and believe what God has told us: Rom 9:14-18

 

[Rufus]

Romans5 - all and many

Adam:

NKJ Rom5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

NKJ Rom5:15a But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died,

NKJ Rom5:18a Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,

NKJ Rom5:19a For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,

Jesus Christ:

NKJ Rom5:15b much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

NKJ Rom5:18b even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

NKJ Rom5:19b so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

More low hanging fruit. I'll just tackle what I bolded in red because I have to leave soon. The parallelism makes perfectly good sense. Death (as in spiritual death) did spread to all men due to Adam's sin. However, that doesn't mean that God allowed that to be a universal phenomenon that would extend to all mankind. We see this truth on display very early on in Gen 3:15 whereby God reconciled Eve to Himself. So...yes death came into this world and "spread" to all men but not all men were left in that state, hence "many died".

 

[Magenta]

Man has trouble understanding how 1) God is merciful and at the same time 2) God is just.
I must admit that this is a troubling concept for all men. But, the truth is that we often do not see things in the same way as God.
Therefore, it might be comforting/helpful for us to see that there is NO MAN who deserves mercy, for all have sinned! However, God is merciful in that He has chosen some to be His people. These people are no better or worse than others. But, they will receive His mercy.

Surely that cannot be right ... does not the free will person deserve God's mercy because they made the right choice???

 

[studier]

I wonder how FWers' mythical universal atonement heresy worked out for the folks living in Asia in Paul's day (Act 16:6)?

It worked out fine when Paul was later sent to Asia (Acts19). Don't think exclusion. Think timing.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

John 17 v 6 I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours; You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they know that everything You have given Me comes from You. 8 For I have given them the words You gave Me, and they have received them. They knew with certainty that I came from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

9 I ask on their behalf. I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those You have given Me; for they are Yours. 10 All I have is Yours, and all You have is Mine; and in them I have been glorified. 11 I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You.

Already pointed out multiple times by Rufus and also conveniently overlooked by those who don't want to see it.

Hhhmmm. I don't think so.

[Mat 9:13 KJV] 13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Evidently, the pre-birth lottery crowd don't even get called!

not only that ... but the Lord Jesus Christ was praying to His Father. His prayer starts in vs 2 and ends in vs 26 ... to rip one verse out of the prayer and hold it up as if that was the end of His prayer is shamefully poor workmanship (2 Tim 2:15).

check out John 17:20-21 ... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


gotta be on guard ...

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

 

[Genez]

That is just more of your dishonesty, as you love to misrepresent not only the views of others, but yourself as well. And Scripture!

But you never lift a finger to show what it is you actually believe, using chapter and verse?

 

[studier]

More low hanging fruit. I'll just tackle what I bolded in red because I have to leave soon. The parallelism makes perfectly good sense. Death (as in spiritual death) did spread to all men due to Adam's sin. However, that doesn't mean that God allowed that to be a universal phenomenon that would extend to all mankind. We see this truth on display very early on in Gen 3:15 whereby God reconciled Eve to Himself. So...yes death came into this world and "spread" to all men but not all men were left in that state, hence "many died".

So, per your belief, and as far as I can tell, only per your belief, Eve did not die. And based upon this unique theory, sin and death were not universal in Adam.

Seems similar to Romanism that says Mary was sinless.

I think Paul is clear in Rom5 when he says all and correlates this to many.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is actually the center of the debate.

I know.

If one is born again prior to belief than there is really no need for the Gospel to have any power.

one of them even had the audacity to claim "those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" ... sick sick sick

Watch out for the tangled mess they like to pull people into, just a friendly fyi.

right ... untangling the knots is time consuming and at times very frustrating ... especially when the knot is untied and then weeks later the same knot appears ... unending cycle of knots ...
.

 

[Genez]

Maybe others do understand.

And some have answered you.

I think it was @cv5 who mentioned how Paul in Romans5 uses "all" interchangeably with "many". IMO that should make us think because Scripture does not always present for our convenience, cultural norms, linguistic styles... And Paul for instance can be referencing Isaiah and clarifying that "many" should be understood as "all".

There are ways these wordings have been answered by interpreters for generations. Yet each side of the debate won't accept the answers of the other.

Translations are ESV:

Many:

Matthew 20:28"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Mark 10:45"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Isaiah 53:11–12"By his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities... yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."

Hebrews 9:28"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

All:

1 Timothy 2:6"...who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."

1 Timothy 4:10"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

2 Corinthians 5:14–15"For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."

Romans 5:18"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

Titus 2:11"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people..."

John 1:29"Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

John 3:16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

All = all mankind having their sins paid for.

Many = those who will believe, who should be exploiting their knowing that their sins have been paid for.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

But you never lift a finger to show what it is you actually believe, using chapter and verse?

you asked for it ...
.

 

[Genez]

And Genez has only himself to blame for giving some of us very low hanging fruit.

Which you still must jump up, to try to grasp.
It must hang low to meet you where you are at.
Otherwise, it would be too high for you to reach.

 

[studier]

All = all mankind having their sins paid for.

Many = those who will believe, who should be exploiting their knowing that their sins have been paid for.

Beside the theological traditions needing things to fit a certain structure, one of the things I think is being missed is that Jesus is eschatologically undoing the fall of all creation, ridding it of sin and death. The scope is vast and not just about us.

If all things (including men & Eve) fell in Adam, then all things (including men & Eve) must be resolved & provided for in Christ, or He leaves the issue in creation unresolved.

The choice in the full scope is to join and be part of the new creation in Christ Jesus. This is what Paul is ultimately dealing with in Rom5.

 

[Genez]

Beside the theological traditions needing things to fit a certain structure, one of the things I think is being missed is that Jesus is eschatologically undoing the fall of all creation, ridding it of sin and death. The scope is vast and not just about us.

If all things (including men & Eve) fell in Adam, then all things (including men & Eve) must be resolved & provided for in Christ, or He leaves the issue in creation unresolved.

The choice in the full scope is to join and be part of the new creation in Christ Jesus. This is what Paul is ultimately dealing with in Rom5.

The New Creation is being revealed in phases.

Now?
By the Spirit-controlled believer.

In Eternity?
By the Spirit filled believer in his glorified body.

.......

 

[Cameron143]

Maybe others do understand.

And some have answered you.

I think it was @cv5 who mentioned how Paul in Romans5 uses "all" interchangeably with "many". IMO that should make us think because Scripture does not always present for our convenience, cultural norms, linguistic styles... And Paul for instance can be referencing Isaiah and clarifying that "many" should be understood as "all".

There are ways these wordings have been answered by interpreters for generations. Yet each side of the debate won't accept the answers of the other.

Translations are ESV:

Many:

Matthew 20:28"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Mark 10:45"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Isaiah 53:11–12"By his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities... yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."

Hebrews 9:28"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

All:

1 Timothy 2:6"...who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."

1 Timothy 4:10"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

2 Corinthians 5:14–15"For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no lonor themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."

Romans 5:18"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

Titus 2:11"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people..."

John 1:29"Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

John 3:16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Right. So many does mean many. And all means all. So...since we can definitively say that Christ only paid the sins of many, we can understand that when all is employed it cannot mean all of humanity. Therefore, we look for another understanding of all. We find that understanding in all being the specific group spoken of in its entirety.

World isn't to be understood as all humanity either, for reasons previously given. So again, we look for an alternative understanding. Without going into great detail, we find the world to be from amongst all the nations, tribes, kindreds, and tongues of the world. It's notable that when Jesus prays His high priestly prayer in John 17, He specifically says He isn't praying for the world, but for those given to Him and those who will believe. This limits His prayer to believers only.

The verses in Timothy, again for reasons stated previously are limited to the all that is in view. They cannot mean all humanity as Jesus is only the Saviour of all people if all actually get saved. Likewise, the Titus verse is limited for the same reasons.

There is more that could be said, but if you aren't going to accept the truth shared here, sharing more will not help.

 

[studier]

There is more that could be said, but if you aren't going to accept the truth shared here, sharing more will not help.

I'm just glancing through your post without much focus. We both know the arguments.

Re: the quote above, back at you, unless you want to reason one point at a time other than your simply asking questions.

 

[Genez]

Right. So many does mean many. And all means all. So...since we can definitively say that Christ only paid the sins of many, we can understand that when all is employed it cannot mean all of humanity. Therefore, we look for another understanding of all. We find that understanding in all being the specific group spoken of in its entirety.

World isn't to be understood as all humanity either, for reasons previously given. So again, we look for an alternative understanding. Without going into great detail, we find the world to be from amongst all the nations, tribes, kindreds, and tongues of the world. It's notable that when Jesus prays His high priestly prayer in John 17, He specifically says He isn't praying for the world, but for those given to Him and those who will believe. This limits His prayer to believers only.

The verses in Timothy, again for reasons stated previously are limited to the all that is in view. They cannot mean all humanity as Jesus is only the Saviour of all people if all actually get saved. Likewise, the Titus verse is limited for the same reasons.

There is more that could be said, but if you aren't going to accept the truth shared here, sharing more will not help.

You are going to get a reward for that.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm just glancing through your post without much focus. We both know the arguments.

Re: the quote above, back at you, unless you want to reason one point at a time other than your simply asking questions.

No need. The 3 verses I gave are definitive. You can join Chubby Checker and keep twisting if you like.