Israel.

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PennEd said:
Ok. So the answer to my question, "You believe Noah, Job, and Daniel were sinless?"
Is YES. You DO believe they were sinless!

This is a foundational, fundamental question of Christian belief you have gotten severely wrong.
ALL have sinned. This is unequivocally said in both the OT and NT. ALL, surprisingly enough, means ALL.
If they lived a sinless life, then not only do they NOT need the Blood of Christ to remove their sin, but they could have acted as Christ Himself in saving humanity.

NONE of them claim to be sinless. You confuse blameless, and righteous as sinless. Let's look at each guy.

Noah:
Noah was a just man. Perfect ( Hebrew - Tamim) in his generation.
Tamim means without blemish or defect. This is a genetic description. Unlike everyone else in that generation, he was genetically untainted.
What did Noah do upon disembarking from the Ark?
He planted a vineyard, harvested it, and got so stinking drunk he wandered around naked! That sounds a little sinful to me.

Job:
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

Blameless and upright DOES NOT mean sinless. In fact, at the end, God chastises him for thinking he's all that.
40 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said:

2 “Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
He who rebukes God, let him answer it.”
Job’s Response to God
3 Then Job answered the Lord and said:

4 “Behold, I am vile;
What shall I answer You?
I lay my hand over my mouth.
5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer;
Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further.”

Daniel:

Daniel spends half of chapter 9 confessing his sin and that of all Israel. Enough said. There is NONE that is without sin.

20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God,
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“ALL have sinned. This is unequivocally said in both the OT and NT. ALL, surprisingly enough, means ALL.”

God looked down from heaven in osapm 14 and saw that man had become that way not that they always were . Your trying to apply something that’s half way through to things before that that are clearly said

psalm 14 does not erase what’s written thousands of years before it .

Yes I believe Noah was just like god said he was that job was also just like god said he was . And you being upset about it doesn’t affect me at all I’m alright with it . Also alright with you believing what you do.

abut yeah I don’t think what god said here in 700 bc about man having become this way

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t think gods observation there changes what he said before that of other men at all nor does Paul quoting from it change what was before it doesn’t change the fact that Enoch walked with god and never died and was translated . That’s not telling you enoch was a sinner but I guess maybe it is I don’t really know

It doesn’t change the fact that Noah is called by the holy scriptures a perfect and just man who walked with god …

It doesn’t change the fact that the holt scripture says that job was a perfect man either …

i don’t think what god sees and says half way through eliminates what happened and what he said before not at all . I believe what it says and don’t try to apply what’s determined half way through from an observation by the lord that man’s become filthy and gone astray .

I don’t have a reason to reject what it says because I’m so convinced of what o think so yeah I believe this is true

“These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and this is true

“There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then I believe this occured later after the law came and was broken ….

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So no I don’t think god lied about Noah and job before that happened and is now saying “ all mankind has always been like this “ rather he’s saying they’ve all become this way …..that’s actually why Jesus had to become a man lol but I won’t try going there with ya
 
HeIsHere said:
Such an important distinction, there is a certain school (doctrine) :censored: that fails to see this and end up going down the wrong path with everything.
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Yes that’s the thing if you get important basic information wrong and won’t budge it throws everything else off in my opinion .
 
Slimsumo said:
Every nation is technically an evil regime to a certain extent. Despite all its faults and sins America is still sending out the most missionairies in the world and supporting the Gospel financially more than any other nation. Just ask yourself, would I rather live in America or Iraq? I take America every day and twice on Sunday. I've never been there but I am drawn to the southern way of life as an outside spectator, I would love to live in the backwoods of Louisiana.
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Is anyone here from Louisiana? Do they have a backwoods? lol I'm not sure. I totally agree with you!
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
That doesn't mean they never sinned. They still made sacrifices for their sins to God such that the were viewed by God as being perfect.

The only person that never sinned and didn't need to make sacrifices for their sin is our Lord Jesus.

🚞
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There has only ever been one way to be viewed by God as being perfect (righteous).

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abram] believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 
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Murdered Hamas hostage Itzik Elgarat tortured to death, autopsy reveals

The autopsy revealed that Itzik’s body arrived with extensive trauma, including multiple broken ribs, a fractured nose, and damaged toes – injuries suggesting brutal and sustained physical abuse


https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/a...sVcE5nGBsPX-wG465I_aem_OGl1dGO5os3bkZ6fL2r-hw


Any comments from the odd squad @CommodoreTeach, @HeIsHere, @ChristRoseFromTheDead

Sadly even his brother blames Israel more than Hamas. Still shows the brutality of the Hamas terrorists.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb said:
Murdered Hamas hostage Itzik Elgarat tortured to death, autopsy reveals

The autopsy revealed that Itzik’s body arrived with extensive trauma, including multiple broken ribs, a fractured nose, and damaged toes – injuries suggesting brutal and sustained physical abuse


https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/a...sVcE5nGBsPX-wG465I_aem_OGl1dGO5os3bkZ6fL2r-hw


Any comments from the odd squad @CommodoreTeach, @HeIsHere, @ChristRoseFromTheDead

Sadly even his brother blames Israel more than Hamas. Still shows the brutality of the Hamas terrorists.
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My guess would be he suffered that trauma and was killed by IDF fire. Lots of hostages were killed by the IDF while bombing Hamas.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
My guess would be he suffered that trauma and was killed by IDF fire. Lots of hostages were killed by the IDF while bombing Hamas.
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When a regime is murdering journalists, it says to me nothing that regime says should be trusted. If it insists that it is not murdering journalists (and it is always playing the victim for crimes it commits itself), all those involved should then be extradited for trial in an international criminal court.

To me, the regime should be treated no differently to any other regime which is sponsoring terrorism (although it's probably only a matter of time before overwhelming evidence of that goes mainstream, also).
 
HeIsHere said:
The word gospel can have different connotations.
There is no doubt that this is what dispensationalism teaches... two covenants.

The idea that Jews and Christians are two different people of God who are saved through two different covenants (dual-covenant theology) is not in the NT.

However, the notion of national Israel and the Church as two distinct people of God contradicts the Bible and the NT goes to great lengths to clarify it, that is why they typically refer to the OT as their proof.
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I've learned a long time ago to never put God in a box. There is no framework what soever around anything that I have posted or believe. As I posted back a bit I like to establish foundational truths in the word of God and use that as a guide line.
I caution everyone not to over reach in there understanding.
There have been some even here who has criticized the writers of certain passages. If I am to believe that this is God's word and is truth
And infallible which I do then I discredit the person who criticizes.
I've learned that God works in a cause and effects mode so as I believe that all prophecy will be fulfilled I also look for signs to follow what was spoken. For the word of the Lord does not return void.
Therefore believing what was spoken should come to pass ....and that is evidence seen. Fulfillment.
When there is no evidence seen on what was spoken it is yet to be.
The creation story shows this clearly. That is why and how prophecy works and is a more sure word.
A great example of this is Jesus prophetic destruction of the temple happening yrs later. Vrs Jesus crucifixion days later. All evidence seen of what was spoken.
 
CommodoreTeach said:
When a regime is murdering journalists, it says to me nothing that regime says should be trusted. If it insists that it is not murdering journalists (and it is always playing the victim for crimes it commits itself), all those involved should then be extradited for trial in an international criminal court.

To me, the regime should be treated no differently to any other regime which is sponsoring terrorism (although it's probably only a matter of time before overwhelming evidence of that goes mainstream, also).
Click to expand...


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...ts-killed-story/ar-AA1KkXVg?ocid=BingNewsSerp
 
CommodoreTeach said:
There has only ever been one way to be viewed by God as being perfect (righteous).

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abram] believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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Interestingly enough Abraham always o eyed god by faith then later he was called righteous and then Even later he was tested and was faithful in obedience to God and fulfilled the scriptire that says he believed god and it was counted as righteousness “

this was Abrams faith his first recorded encounter with God in scripture

“Now the LORD had said unto Abram,

Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:

and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s faith Abraham didint consider it “ works “ to obey god bit rather god made a promise that of Abraham did what god was telling him to do , god would bless him with all he promised so Abraham acted in faith and obeyed . Left his homeland and set out not even knowing where he was going yet that’s faith .

“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s what we are called to do listen to gods word in the gospel and then believe and follow where he leads us just like Abraham . Had Abraham said he believed god but then didnt obey it , did he actually believe ? Or wouldn’t that be “faith without works is dead ?”

But instead He a man of faith trusted god to lead him so he believed and obeyed what god told him

later after Abraham had left following the lord he begins to wonder that he will never have his own son in order to leave his large inheritance to . So then saria intervenes and suggested he should have a son with Hagar her servant . He does this and has a son , ishmael .

then we come to what Paul’s talking about the promise of a hier

“And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see my point at all ? After this all transpired Abrahams faith is tested this parts really important and look how it confirms the covenant promise

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did test Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. “


….( look at Abraham’s faith here ) And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:1-2, 7-8, 10-12, 15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ve quoted all that because James teaches this about faith and uses that as an example here to make his point about the scripture regarding Abraham believing god ..

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17, 21-23, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham always believed and obeyed gods word to him. If he hadn’t done the things god said to him he wouldn’t have inherited the covenant. But he did because he believed the lord
 
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