Two Natures???

[GWH]

Does the Christian have two natures, one sinful and the other divine?
Or does the Christian have one nature, the 'new creation'?
Your thoughts with appropriate Scripture.

The two natures manifested on much of CC are these:

1. Those who ascribe to humanity robotic/pre-determined hearts and to God favoritism or implied hatred toward the non-elect.

2. Those who ascribe to humanity morally accountable hearts and to God love and conditional salvation toward everyone.

 

[Karlon]

Does the Christian have two natures, one sinful and the other divine?
Or does the Christian have one nature, the 'new creation'?
Your thoughts with appropriate Scripture.

i don't think so. we definitely have a sinful nature. we can learn, to a degree, a divine nature but we must remind ourselves, constantly, to think, speak & do the right thing. we never have to remind ourselves to be selfish, vengeful or sinful. it's there ubiquitously & abundantly.

 

[DeanM]

I don't believe so , I believe humans r sinners through and through , we r flesh , God is pure and is a Spirit . The only good in us comes from God's Holy Spirit , working in and through us to do His Will .

I think you are correct. Anyone who says they no longer sin is delusional or a liar. Abraham made sacrifices and he was closer to God than anyone alive now.

 

[Blain]

Yes agreed . If you think about it if I’m willfully sinning I wouldn’t be doing this when I became aware

when we realize we have sinned

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if sin is willful the person wouldnt care they sinned there would be no recognition they messed up . No room for repentance and confession .What I was meaning is the more of the stuff we don’t want to hear sinks in it changes how we perceive sin .

Yeah this makes sense

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think you are correct. Anyone who says they no longer sin is delusional or a liar. Abraham made sacrifices and he was closer to God than anyone alive now.

“Anyone who says they no longer sin is delusional or a liar. “

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; …..who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12, 14‬ ‭

If we listen it’s trying to say somthing to us trying to change our thinking about these things change our minds

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; ( not dead but corrupted )


and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


( this part we should listen to to get to that point ) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil.

Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:20-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we let this be our true and correct type of cost time it’s able to change how we think so we think like we’re learning there

tbis type of thing isn’t there to condemn us for what we’ve done but to call us to repentance for what we’re still doing or might do in the future it’s not anyone saying your sinless or they are but we have to acknowledge tol he part that calls us to change our ways in the gospel. And begin to apply the things they were teaching like Paul’s short section there or warnings like this in the next chapter as he continues

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savor.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at at warning isn’t to condemn us and drive us away from him but to exhort us to repentance if we’re doing those things

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its meant to be heard and believed accepted because it’s meant to change our thinking from “ we’re all just helpless sinners who sin constently and we can’t overcome “

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Its the doctrine that changes sinners in tbier minds to children of god they turn against sin so that when they become aware of thoer sin they want it gone they don’t want to do it knowing it’s decay and curse of death . The doctrine can break strongholds in our minds and hearts

 

[John146]

Our bodies are a new creation in Christ also:

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!" 1 Corinthians 6:15

So are our bodies members of Christ and members of Adam at the same time? Not according to this passage.

What's the point of the future redemption of our bodies? Is your body going to physically die? Our bodies are still under the condemnation of death. All parts of me (body, soul, and spirit) belong to the Lord, but my body needs to be redeemed.

 

[DeanM]

“Anyone who says they no longer sin is delusional or a liar. “

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; …..who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12, 14‬ ‭

If we listen it’s trying to say somthing to us trying to change our thinking about these things change our minds

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; ( not dead but corrupted )


and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


( this part we should listen to to get to that point ) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil.

Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:20-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we let this be our true and correct type of cost time it’s able to change how we think so we think like we’re learning there

tbis type of thing isn’t there to condemn us for what we’ve done but to call us to repentance for what we’re still doing or might do in the future it’s not anyone saying your sinless or they are but we have to acknowledge tol he part that calls us to change our ways in the gospel. And begin to apply the things they were teaching like Paul’s short section there or warnings like this in the next chapter as he continues

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savor.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at at warning isn’t to condemn us and drive us away from him but to exhort us to repentance if we’re doing those things

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its meant to be heard and believed accepted because it’s meant to change our thinking from “ we’re all just helpless sinners who sin constently and we can’t overcome “

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its the doctrine that changes sinners in tbier minds to children of god they turn against sin so that when they become aware of thoer sin they want it gone they don’t want to do it knowing it’s decay and curse of death . The doctrine can break strongholds in our minds and hearts

Are you one of those that is free of all sin?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Are you one of those that is free of all sin?

Naw I’m someone who believes we have to repent if we have sinned and not pretend it’s ok and learn to do better as we go along with the lord and someone who believes the gospel and what he taught about forgivness to others and how that’s going to apply to me

 

[DeanM]

What's the point of the future redemption of our bodies? Is your body going to physically die? Our bodies are still under the condemnation of death. All parts of me (body, soul, and spirit) belong to the Lord, but my body needs to be redeemed.

Your body rots in the ground or is ash after cremation. At thr resurection you get a new glorified body to be joined with your soul and spirit which went to heaven at the moment of death.

 

[posthuman]

Your body rots in the ground or is ash after cremation. At thr resurection you get a new glorified body to be joined with your soul and spirit which went to heaven at the moment of death.

it's the same body, redeemed - just like Christ Himself bodily rose and demonstrated to Thomas that it was exactly the same body, a physical body, that ate fish.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

it's the same body, redeemed - just like Christ Himself bodily rose and demonstrated to Thomas that it was exactly the same body, a physical body, that ate fish.

“Thomas that it was exactly the same body, a physical body, that ate fish.”

jesus flesh was without sin ours isn’t death comes from sin .


“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

So also is the resurrection of the dead.

it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 37, 40, 42-44, 49-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember this other form of Jesus ?

“and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats his spiritual form . We have one too .

 

[John146]

“Thomas that it was exactly the same body, a physical body, that ate fish.”

jesus flesh was without sin ours isn’t death comes from sin .


“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

So also is the resurrection of the dead.

it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 37, 40, 42-44, 49-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember this other form of Jesus ?

“and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats his spiritual form . We have one too .

A spiritual body made of flesh and bones. A body that can pass through walls and transport from one place to another.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

A spiritual body made of flesh and bones. A body that can pass through walls and transport from one place to another.

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;”

“it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[HeIsHere]

“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;”

Yes, that is indeed what it states.

 

[DeanM]

A spiritual body made of flesh and bones. A body that can pass through walls and transport from one place to another.

A glorified body is not flesh and bone.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, that is indeed what it states.

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-23‬ ‭

what I mean by all relating to the subject is ….

“it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44, 46, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We aren’t being redeemed for this earth again our bodies now are made to live a short time in this world but the kingdom is another world promosed to us and our bodies to come will be made to love forever with him there in the home he’s prepared for those who love him and are waiting in faith for his promise to be fulfilled

what we are now is but a mere glimpse of what we will be and where we live and are now not a glimmer of the place and home he has prepared for his people

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus appeared as a normal man again because he was still on earth for fourty days convincing them . We will never have to live on this earth again he’s got a better home waiting this one is doomed

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
… But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

….Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7-8, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Well Have new bodies for a new creation without sin that will never fall again

 

[John146]

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;”

“it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Correct, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but flesh and bone can. The blood is what's corrupt. Jesus, shedding his blood, is a picture of getting rid of the sin that corrupts us. His glorified body, after the resurrection, was a spiritual body made of flesh and bone. Ever since the fall, blood is the corruption, sin nature. It has been passed down to everyone after Adam.

 

[John146]

A glorified body is not flesh and bone.

Well, the resurrected body of Jesus was flesh and bone.

 

[John146]

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-23‬ ‭

what I mean by all relating to the subject is ….

“it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44, 46, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We aren’t being redeemed for this earth again our bodies now are made to live a short time in this world but the kingdom is another world promosed to us and our bodies to come will be made to love forever with him there in the home he’s prepared for those who love him and are waiting in faith for his promise to be fulfilled

what we are now is but a mere glimpse of what we will be and where we live and are now not a glimmer of the place and home he has prepared for his people

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus appeared as a normal man again because he was still on earth for fourty days convincing them . We will never have to live on this earth again he’s got a better home waiting this one is doomed

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
… But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

….Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7-8, 10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Well Have new bodies for a new creation without sin that will never fall again

The difference is the blood of Jesus was not passed down from Adam. This is the importance of Jesus being God's only begotten Son. The sinless blood of God was in the body of Jesus, therefore, his blood could be shed for sins.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Correct, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but flesh and bone can. The blood is what's corrupt. Jesus, shedding his blood, is a picture of getting rid of the sin that corrupts us. His glorified body, after the resurrection, was a spiritual body made of flesh and bone. Ever since the fall, blood is the corruption, sin nature. It has been passed down to everyone after Adam.

alrighty