Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Blain]

We were having a spirited discussion of free will and hearing the Gospel, the presentation of grace and truth and things that relate to these topics. Now, suddenly we have gone off course into "forum behaviour". I wonder why?

Well since it seems to have derailed the topic I will just drop it

 

[cv5]

“Yes agree this has been repeated often to the "inability" clan many times over many years.”

Do you see how if I’m not able …..then I can’t be held responsible ?

That would be Satan's lie, that which he also used to deceive the fallen angels.

Among many others, all of which accuse God of being evil and the origin of evil.

See Job 1 and 2 et al.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well since it seems to have derailed the topic I will just drop it

No progress without resistance

 

[Cameron143]

The reason I did not underline what you want underlined was because I was emphasizing that we are to be "swift to hear" and "slow to speak" and "slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God".

Background concerning the situation ...

Magenta submitted a verse of Scripture in one of her panels and I explained the verse.

Instead of discussing the verses submitted, the response from Magenta was "Nothing is nothing... except to those who pervert the Word of God. Paul says such people are conceited and understand nothing."

So, Cameron143 ... that is the reason I underlined the words I underlined ... and, hopefully, Magenta will utilize John 3:27 appropriately rather than hold it up as some sort of proof text for a meaning never intended by the Author of Scripture.

Another reason I did not underline the words you want underlined was because I believe Magenta is already begotten of God ... however, she may prove that I am mistaken by her continued unwillingness to consider verses of Scripture within the context the Author of Scripture has placed them and instead manipulates a verse here, a verse there without any comprehension that the verses do not support what she claims ...





please re-read my post, BillyBob ... I did not strike out the words you want struck out ... and I have every right to underline the text I underlined based upon the response I received when I provided information relating to the meaning of John 3:27.


For full understanding of the situation:

See my post Post 6370 ... and Magenta's reply at Post 6732. ... and my reply at Post 6744 which contains the verse of Scripture which offends BillyBob and Cameron143 because I didn't strike out something BillyBob wanted struck out ... or I didn't underline something Cameron143 wanted underlined.

And please note ... none of you has refuted what I explained to Magenta concerning John 3:27 ... instead, you all provide ample proof that you all need to be "swift to hear" and "slow to speak" and "slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God".

Maybe you all need to re-read all the posts submitted by Blain concerning the behavior in this thread ...

Galatians 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
.
.

You are free to underline as you please. I just found it interesting that the very thing that many have been voicing was in your post. How do you understand the verse?

 

[BillyBob]

The reason I did not underline what you want underlined was because I was emphasizing that we are to be "swift to hear" and "slow to speak" and "slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God".

Background concerning the situation ...

Magenta submitted a verse of Scripture in one of her panels and I explained the verse.

Instead of discussing the verses submitted, the response from Magenta was "Nothing is nothing... except to those who pervert the Word of God. Paul says such people are conceited and understand nothing."

So, Cameron143 ... that is the reason I underlined the words I underlined ... and, hopefully, Magenta will utilize John 3:27 appropriately rather than hold it up as some sort of proof text for a meaning never intended by the Author of Scripture.

Another reason I did not underline the words you want underlined was because I believe Magenta is already begotten of God ... however, she may prove that I am mistaken by her continued unwillingness to consider verses of Scripture within the context the Author of Scripture has placed them and instead manipulates a verse here, a verse there without any comprehension that the verses do not support what she claims ...





please re-read my post, BillyBob ... I did not strike out the words you want struck out ... and I have every right to underline the text I underlined based upon the response I received when I provided information relating to the meaning of John 3:27.


For full understanding of the situation:

See my post Post 6730 ... and Magenta's reply at Post 6732. ... and my reply at Post 6744 which contains the verse of Scripture which offends BillyBob and Cameron143 because I didn't strike out something BillyBob wanted struck out ... or I didn't underline something Cameron143 wanted underlined.

And please note ... none of you has refuted what I explained to Magenta concerning John 3:27 ... instead, you all provide ample proof that you all need to be "swift to hear" and "slow to speak" and "slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God".

Maybe you all need to re-read all the posts submitted by Blain concerning the behavior in this thread ...

Galatians 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
.
.

Sorry for the pun...
I did not intend to say that you actually struck out text! I posted as a jest and if it offended you, then I apologize.

 

[Magenta]

Hah...faith in SELF! That sounds like something the seed of the serpent would relish and glory in.

Yes... the thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy... he wants God's glory.

He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes... the thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy... he wants God's glory.

He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Yes... the thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy... he wants God's glory.

He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭

““You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

If they accept the seed of the serpent and serve after his Will they’ll become his child

of they accept the truth the seed of Gods word it gives them the power to become sons of God.

Its not our first birth everyones the same it’s who we choose when confronted with the truth of the gospel ….and lies

to receive the gospel is how we can become his children

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to receive the gospel to receive tbat promise it’s not that we’re already his children or the devils children but if we accept the gospel we can become gods children and if we reject it we’re left as satans children and so one group will inherit the kingdom of god thier father and the others will inherit the destiny of thier father the devil

““Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

( it was prepared for these people standing on his right based on his judgement of what they did )

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

…“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, …ect

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment,

but the righteous to eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:34-37, 40-42, 44-46‬ ‭

We become sons of god through accepting the gospel or become sons of the devil by filling up our hearts with other beliefs and doctrines that don’t leave room for the gospel

““Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

everyone isn’t already a son of god or son of the devil we can become through the gospel children of god or be children of Satan by rejecting that promise in the gospel

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭NIV‬‬

the other option

““Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned but has crossed over from condemnation to life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Whoever we choose to believe and serve is whose children we are whether of sin leading to death or righteousness leading to life in Christ

 

[sawdust]

Nothing earned or brought about by MFW..

Show us the post where we said we earned or made our salvation possible and we'll show you the post where you said Satan can keep us in the dark better than the Lord can shine His light?

(nothing like playing games to keep the children happy)

 

[Rufus]

Show us the post where we said we earned or made our salvation possible and we'll show you the post where you said Satan can keep us in the dark better than the Lord can shine His light?

(nothing like playing games to keep the children happy)

You FWers are the ones who say God merely makes salvation "possible" through his "opportunities". But it is your own "freewill" that effectually makes that salvation actual/realized.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes we are to refute heresies when necessary the issue is when we do it the wrong way
And some come here with a sword already in hand because they are used to such an attitude from debates.

But we must refute heresies in the correct way also it is important that fruits of the spirit be shown

“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we talk a lot about putting the flesh to death here others say “ Christ lives in me I’m not who I was Christ worls tbrough me “ but the arguing is a direct result of feeding our flesh and reacting by it. Of carnality it’s a result of only ever taking milk which is good for babes and not the solid food in tbe doctrine so we never graduate to meet and mature and learn to discern between good and evil

“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

milk is good for babes healthy but when they begin to age they have to have proteins and solid foods for thoer skeleton and muscles to develope in to healthy adults.

Christianity is the same way, it’s good to drink the milk of the word when we are babes the solid food would choke us . Newborns become babes tbrough the milk but the milk doesn’t feed them to maturity the meat and potatoes does that part as we wash it down with the milk which again is good for a newborn

“as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭

abut we need also to grow up on time and for that we need the solid food in gods word . A lot of milk drinkers and meat eaters are going to have a lot of misunderstandings and different points of view

 

[sawdust]

So...you idea of effectual grace is that it isn't actually divine FAVOR! For how would his grace favor those whom God has enabled to make a poor decision? Grace in scripture and in dictionaries, etc. always point to divine favor, yet how are rejectors of the gospel favored when they wind up in hell for all eternity? Some divine favor!

You did nothing to deserve this "divine favour" so how is it not "divine favour" when an unbeliever is given the same grace and truth as you? Your idea of grace is onesided. Better hope you're on the right side I guess.

My idea of grace is it is God's power to see His will done, given freely based on His own character of love and integrity not Him doing anyone any favours. When God pours out His grace He reveals his love, power and integrity and sometimes that means people will hate Him for it as they prefer darkness to light, hate to love and do not won't to have any power over their life except their own. When they do that, they have indeed shown why God's will is to lock them away for all eternity so, God's will is done whether one rejects or accepts the Gospel message.

God's will on the Cross was to overcome sin which, Christ completed. Our salvation is an indirect result of the Cross, not it's main goal. This is why scripture says Christ died for the whole world meaning the whole world and not simply part of it as you think. Only Christ was saved on the Cross which is why salvation is to be found only in Him. He now offers that salvation to all who believe and for those who do? It is the absolute power of God to save and we have this proof, not because Christ died on the Cross, but because He rose from the dead. This is why the scripture says our faith is in vain if Christ is not risen, it doesn't say our faith is in vain if Christ didn't die.

 

[sawdust]

You FWers are the ones who say God merely makes salvation "possible" through his "opportunities". But it is your own "freewill" that effectually makes that salvation actual/realized.

We have never said our will makes salvation possible, that is simply your own lack of understanding. It is Christ's salvation that makes salvation for us possible.

Get up to speed, you're so far behind the ball all you have is huff and puff and a red face.

 

[Genez]

Give me one example in scripture wherein God's grace (favor) failed to accomplish a positive result. How many of Jesus' gracious miracles failed?

You not only have an extremely low view of God (due to your inordinate high view of yourself), but your view is just as corrupt re his grace. You do not see His grace as being supernatural power which He exerts on his elect.

"Favor" is what many accept for God's grace.

But, Paul tells us that God's grace is *enabling power!*

Even Google A.I. knows this much!

Yes, Paul's writings often depict God's grace as more than just forgiveness; it's an enabling power that empowers believers to live transformed lives and serve God. It's not just about being saved from sin, but also about having the strength and ability to live a life pleasing to God.

Here is where Paul displays the real meaning for grace as it was demonstrated in his walk!

2 Corinthians 12:7-10​

​

or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming ​

conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I ​

pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, ​

for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my ​

weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in​

weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then ​

I am strong.​

And, if that is not enough?

1 Corinthians 15:9-10​

​

For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted ​

the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. ​

No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.​

It's not the first time that many will grab onto a wrong concept that never gets questioned.

Grace is God's enabling power to make us become and be what we can not be in our own power and abilities!

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. ​

That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.​

For years I could not understand how God simply showing us favor could make us able to do what we have no natural capacity nor ability for doing. Then while studying I read what Paul wrote.

And? A light was turned on brightly.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Believing that there must be a god is not the same as having the desire to turn and please the one true God. Natural man does not have a desire for God, they have a very great love for the things of this world which must be overcome.... Their hearts are wicked and corrupt, who can understand it!

sigh ... not the point I made, BillyBob ...

Here is what I said:

Natural man can understand and believe some (most) of God's Word. There are some truths which are not understood at first reading ... some things written in Scripture require some spiritual maturity to understand, but not all of Scripture is beyond the grasp of natural man to understand. What "spiritual insight" is required in reading in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth ... or you shall not steal? You either believe what is written or you don't.

Do you believe natural man needs Holy Spirit within to understand in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth ?

Do you believe natural man needs Holy Spirit within to understand you shall not steal ?

I am in full agreement that some things require spiritual maturity to understand, but there are also truths in Scripture which can be believed without the need to be born again to understand.

According to Romans 1:16-19, when the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes is presented, natural man either believes or he/she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and does not believe.

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

James 2:19 is nestled in a section of Scripture wherein we are told that faith without works is dead ...

James 2:18-19 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I agree it's not enough to believe God exists ... faith takes hold of the promises of God ... the instruction of God ... the chastening of God ... and as we keep in mind God's promises, instruction, chastening, our lives are changed (or should be).

You can read through the pages of this thread and you can see the behavior of some ... what do you see? in some posts you see the works of carnal, fleshly behavior ... in some posts you see fruit of heeding Scripture.

Where do you want to live your life, BillyBob? ... continue in carnal, fleshly pursuits ? ... or behold the glory of the Lord as revealed in Scripture and be changed from glory to glory by the Spirit of the Lord ?

I know some of the stuff we talk about here can be upsetting to some, but if we're born again, the Holy Spirit within can assist us in keeping our fleshly emotions under control so that we're not drawn away to the point where we say stuff which ought not to be said. And I also realize that those who are drawn away are exhibiting works of the flesh ... nothing the flesh does surprises me ... I may find it repugnant, but flesh is flesh. And, don't get me wrong I'm not perfect ... I'm still being conformed to the image of Christ just like you and others who post here ... one day those who are born again will be like Him and we shall see Him as He is and all this flesh junk will fall away.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I believe faith is inherent within all descendants of Adam. It is faith within mankind which results in belief/believing ... just as the intellect within mankind results in thoughts/thinking.

How did the descendants of Adam come by this inherent faith which obviously Adam didn't have and never expressed either after he sinned? Are you suggesting that Adam's progeny inherited Adam's "faith"?

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth

each generation is begotten in the image and likeness of the prior generation. inherent within each generation is faith, intellect, emotions, the senses, the conscience.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

My flesh did not conjure up the fear of God. Isaiah 11:2 describes it as from the Holy Spirit.

you do realize that Isaiah 11:2 speaks specifically of Messiah, yes?

Isaiah 11:1-5 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are free to underline as you please. I just found it interesting that the very thing that many have been voicing was in your post. How do you understand the verse?

How about you go through Post 6730 and see if you have any issues with what I posited ... here's what I said:

first verse in your panel ... this verse is not speaking of salvation. The verse is speaking of the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ ... the disciples of John Baptist asked John about the Lord Jesus Christ and His ministry:​

​

John 3:​

​

25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.​

​

26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.​

​

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.​

​

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.​

​

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.​

​

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.​

​

John's ministry was foretold by his father, Zacharias (Luke 1:17), and John was faithful to his ministry. In vs 30 John said "He must increase but I [John] must decrease" ... John was a wonderful, faithful believer who fulfilled ministry until he was beheaded by Herod ... ​

I do not believe the response of Magenta is accurate nor is it on point:

Nothing is nothing... except to those who pervert the Word of God. Paul says such people are conceited and understand nothing. ​

How did my explaining to Magenta that John 3:27 does not relate to the other verses in her panel (John 1:12-13 ... or John 6:44 ... or Romans 9:16) ... that John was explaining to his disciples that he had received his ministry from God ... that as the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ increased, the ministry of John must decrease ... how did that in any way, shape, or form equate to my "pervert[ing] that Word of God" ... or that I am "conceited and understand nothing"?


your response to these issues will determine whether I will go through James 1:18 with you.

and it has not escaped notice that BillyBob was the only one who was humble enough to attempt to apologize after understanding the whole scenario ... not a peep from Magenta ... and you just want to sweep the mishandling of Scripture by Magenta under the carpet like "move along folks, nuttin' to see here" ...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

For years I could not understand how God simply showing us favor could make us able to do what we have no natural capacity nor ability for doing. Then while studying I read what Paul wrote.

And? A light was turned on brightly.

thought I'd throw this in the mix ...

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
.

 

[Cameron143]

How about you go through Post 6730 and see if you have any issues with what I posited ... here's what I said:

first verse in your panel ... this verse is not speaking of salvation. The verse is speaking of the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ ... the disciples of John Baptist asked John about the Lord Jesus Christ and His ministry:​

​

John 3:​

​

25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.​

​

26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.​

​

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.​

​

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.​

​

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.​

​

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.​

​

John's ministry was foretold by his father, Zacharias (Luke 1:17), and John was faithful to his ministry. In vs 30 John said "He must increase but I [John] must decrease" ... John was a wonderful, faithful believer who fulfilled ministry until he was beheaded by Herod ... ​

I do not believe the response of Magenta is accurate nor is it on point:

Nothing is nothing... except to those who pervert the Word of God. Paul says such people are conceited and understand nothing. ​

How did my explaining to Magenta that John 3:27 does not relate to the other verses in her panel (John 1:12-13 ... or John 6:44 ... or Romans 9:16) ... that John was explaining to his disciples that he had received his ministry from God ... that as the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ increased, the ministry of John must decrease ... how did that in any way, shape, or form equate to my "pervert[ing] that Word of God" ... or that I am "conceited and understand nothing"?


your response to these issues will determine whether I will go through James 1:18 with you.

and it has not escaped notice that BillyBob was the only one who was humble enough to attempt to apologize after understanding the whole scenario ... not a peep from Magenta ... and you just want to sweep the mishandling of Scripture by Magenta under the carpet like "move along folks, nuttin' to see here" ...

So...you posted a verse that I inquired about, you won't give an explanation of it unless I weigh in on a conversation I'm not following?

 

[studier]

thought I'd throw this in the mix ...

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
.

Not that @Genez isn't aware of this verse, but it has interested me why this seems to be one of the last verses, if at all, brought into discussion about grace.