Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

yes I think Roman’s ten there if we look close isn’t confusing. It’s hearkening to a prophecy in the ( isaiah 52-53)about the gospel that would be preached by and about Christ Jesus

But couple folks are just missing some information . God did indeed make Isreal unable to hear his word after tbey rebelled and ignored it for a long time and had to choose some of them and make them able to hear him again .

“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, and the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:9-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is a specific condition upon israel after they for many generations provoked his wrath and anger by rejecting and ignoring his word as if they couldn’t hear it . So he made them unable to hear it but for the remnant that he chose the remnant promised to be saved the tenth of them in the final verse of that prophecy

“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy ( not fulfilled in every human ) of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul later calls Jews together and witnesses the gospel to them ….
Some believe and some don’t

“And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers,

saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes have they closed; Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them.

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:25-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a misunderstanding based upon the fact that he made Israelites blind and deaf to his word and then chose a remnant of Israelites and unstopped thier ears in order to spread the gospel to all people offering salvation . they are applying things he said specifically to Israelites based on the ot curses to everyone else who’s never been under that curse.

gentiles were never made blind and deaf to Gods word, to begin with they had been excluded from the covenant all together and he wasn’t speaking covenants to them at that time only israel. But They broke his covenant and ignored his word so he made them blind and deaf to his word . ANd later needed to do stuff like this

“Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He had to do this for them because he had done this prior

“Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, ….Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them.

He hasn’t done that to others so he doesn’t need to undo it it’s a specific co diction of Israelites at that time because their covenant was coming to a culmination as a curse for breaking it

Firstly, can you clarify the matter of the Remnant?

"So he made them unable to hear it but for the remnant that he chose the remnant promised to be saved the tenth of them in the final verse of that prophecy"

"It’s a misunderstanding based upon the fact that he made Israelites blind and deaf to his word and then chose a remnant of Israelites and unstopped thier ears in order to spread the gospel to all people offering salvation . they are applying things he said specifically to Israelites based on the ot curses to everyone else who’s never been under that curse."

And please clarify how this applies to Rom10 "hearing" vs. "understanding".

Thanks!

 

[studier]

I assume she's referring the author of Haka's link, Dr. Leighton Flowers.

Agree. Found him on YT and listened to a couple brief sessions - one very good one Rom8:28 - another on Rom9 that was a "30k foot" view and lacked some detail found in the other one.

 

[Rufus]

Salvation is the result of belief

“preach the gospel anyones who’s already saved will believe it “


Thats not what it says it’s contrary and backwards it says “preach the gospel by one who believes shall be saved “


Salvation is a direct result of believing the gospel. The gospel is the power of god to save lost sinners

Nope! The gospel is the power of God for everyone who believes. The gospel is most certainly not the power of God for all lost sinners in the world.

 

[BillyBob]

YES! What is YOUR personal, spiritual problem with this truth? In your world it would be far better for God's grace to be ineffectual so that the vast majority of people can reject it, not believe the gospel and suffer in the lake of fire forever, rather than His grace be effectual that enables belief so that the believer can spend eternity with his loving, compassionate and merciful Creator and Redeemer?
In your universe, it would be better for God to go through the motions of offering mere salvation opportunities rather than actually pulling anyone's bacon out of the fire.

And what part of Act 18:27 don't you get? The text doesn't say that Apollos was a great help to those who believed by their "freewill" choice.

It is hard for them to believe that God must prepare the bad soil and make it fertile to receive His word....

 

[Magenta]

It is hard for them to believe that God must prepare the bad soil and make it fertile to receive His word....

Well, in their self-exalting theology, they cure their incurably
wicked heart and do the very thing Jesus said was impossible!

 

[studier]

It's like a spiritual gymnasium.

Indeed!

Those lessons bring back some memories which in part were brought back into consciousness when I responded to your other posts. I was going to mention the impersonal love part but figured I didn't really want to open up more terminology to be explaining and debating. I can only handle so much time in the gym these days.

 

[studier]

It makes you sit there stunned to see how God provided.

That's a great statement!

I'm sure you've heard RBT speak of his studies with his dog at his side and startle the dog when he would be shown something in the Text he hadn't seen as clearly before and react vocally or physically.

I've had many such experiences in studies also, but without the dog.

 

[fredoheaven]

Faith is faith.
It is the object of the faith that matters.

Anen. The faith that saves is directed to its object who is our Lordo Jesus Cheist that matters most. The Calvies falsely accuses us of our faith in Christ could not save us after hearing the gospel and believing it. Simoly the bibke says we are saved by grace through faith in not youselves but faith in Christ.

 

[Magenta]

The Calvies falsely accuses us of our faith in Christ could not save us after hearing the gospel and believing it.

You really ought not lie so blatantly. Or even at all. But you are confused along with your peers. Still...

We are saved by grace through faith. Pelagian heretics believe men generate their own faith from their incurably wicked heart.
That the person without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God does what only those with the indwelling Holy Spirit can do.

Free willing folks attempt to get around the whole"there are none
good" by denying what Jesus said, and what Scripture plainly teaches.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verse 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[Rufus]

So the you say the cause of faith is.....pre-birth selection super-determinism?

I mean that what it all boils down to right? I mean, this is the ULTIMATE CAUSE of literally everything everywhere all the time without exception. Right?

When did God give his grace to the elect?

 

[Magenta]

Since one does not believe or reject, he will not be given life(regeneration) if one does believe in Christ then he is given life (regeneration). Now what I am seeing from you is to divert ones attention to calling and does not refute in in anyway that regeneration is the result of one's faith. I failed to see that in your post. Btw, if ever ypu make a quote of scripture or cite verses , i would suggest to put in a clear and simple font for us to follow if you will. Well, the bible says " he magnify his word above..." that is when God's word is magnified is sure it is vivid or clear. Your presebtation of your memes is not clear type and often distract attention because what is magnified is the picture of a woman,, with respect, idk, if it is your cartoon photo. If you may do it in a simpler way. Thanks

Divert one's attention to calling? Please stop with your false accusations. Coming to believe involves a multi-faceted process that includes being called out of the world, hearing the Gospel, believing in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior, repenting of sin, confessing faith in Christ, and experiencing a transformed life having been made alive in Christ. People without the Spirit cannot receive the things of the Spirit so that is what must come first despite the ridiculous claims of those who teach that the unregenerated person produces their own faith and then receives the Spirit. Since hearing is paramount, it cannot be discounted. What does the unregenerated person hear when the gospel is preached? Scripture says it is foolishness to them (FWers contradict and outright deny this). Jesus even says not all hear (FWers contradict and outright deny this). Scripture says the whole world is under the power and influence of Satan, which is another reason Christians should be grateful for being called out of the world. Too bizarre that it gets mocked by people who claim to be Christians. The gospel is hid to those perishing - the lost (FWers contradict and outright deny this). The unregenerated person is blinded by the god of this age. They can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God (FWers contradict and outright deny this). They are opposed to the spiritual things of God. They are lovers of darkness, slaves to sin, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness with a mind that is hostile to God and a heart that needs replacing. The person refusing to come into the light is the person free willers claim decides to believe.... with that incurably wicked heart which he is powerless to change. Jesus said that a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, and there are none good (FWers contradict and outright deny this). What free willers proclaim is not what the Bible teaches of the unregenerated person. The unregenerated person, not being indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, has a mind set on the flesh which serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, not life (FWers contradict and outright deny this). The Bible says they cannot receive the Spirit of truth, and they are incapable of submitting to God (FWers not only contradict and outright deny this, it is what they teach and then say they don't). FWers refuse to harmonize these many truths to conform with what the Bible teaches because they are too attached to their false doctrine.

The panels have the text under them, though I make it white. It is easy enough to make visible
if you cannot read what is on any panel. I have close to a thousand fonts to choose from and
many are not suitable for one reason or another but I do take care in selecting each one.
Sometimes the text is small because there are so very many Scriptures supporting my view.
Meanwhile you have zero verses articulating free will. Being able to choose what colour of
socks to wear or what to have for lunch has no bearing on the eternal fate of one's soul
and should not in any way be used to overturn what Scripture says of humanity.

Are you going to respond to this, @fredoheaven ?

 

[Rufus]

There you have it. From the horse's mouth.

So when you read God saying things like this, just remember God is really angry at His own secret decree, truly schrizophrenic view of God:

Jeremiah 8:7
Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD.

Isaiah 1:3
The ox knows its master, the donkey its owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.”

I really dont know how you can believe this. Why are so you commited to a position that is CLEARLY unbiblical and causes a lot of problems on just surface level bible reading. You cant read the bible much without noticing God's will is violated all the time.

God wanted the pharisees to receive the baptism of John, yet they rejected him. Because thats how God has ordained it, He has given us a will because we are in His image.

Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

I take it that you don't care much for God's rule over the entire universe and everything in it. Don't you know that both good and evil proceed from God's mouth?

 

[fredoheaven]

I believe in Christ after hearing the gospel of salvation. Thank God he saved me when I placed my trust on him not my selves. The object of my faith is not me it's Christ my Saviour. Amen!

 

[Magenta]

I believe in Christ after hearing the gospel of salvation. Thank God he saved me when I placed my trust on him not my selves. The object of my faith is not me it's Christ my Saviour. Amen!

Praise the Lord He opened your eyes and ears and circumcised your heart... so you could see, hear, and believe, and love Him in return.

Because otherwise you would have heard the gospel as foolishness and been blinded by the god of this world.

Scripture teaches that as the truth of those yet unregenerated, you know. Or don't you?

Praise the Lord

 

[fredoheaven]

Yes I believe what the scriptures says and not what tthe tulip says. Anen!

 

[Cameron143]

I have at various times over the years, have a lot of the best lexical tools on my system and access to more on a very comprehensive library system I purchased quite a while back. Google doesn't have access to some of these other than to tell you they exist and where to buy them.

But you're changing definitions of a simple word having obvious contextual confirmation, so it's really up to you to make and prove your case if you even care what others think and have to say. I might even read through an article or something you post, and you think agrees with you.

Also, you used Jesus' repeated rhetorical command re: having ears to substantiate your view of "hearing" and I (and others) clarified what Jesus is saying and why it doesn't back you up. Why no response?

I've posted at times more extensive information on words, grammar, context, etc., only to have it ignored or claimed to be inaccurate by posters I could tell had no clue how to analyze and reason through it. I'm kind of done with the process unless I get some like-kind interaction. There is virtually no authority orientation here other than the "my pastor says" that Paul dealt with in 1Cor. I've posted from some of the best reference material available only to be told the published scholar doesn't know what he's saying but with zero backup for such a statement.

You seem to believe that you are the only one with tools or that the scholar you prize is the lone scholar. I employed a simple Google search and found acceptable definitions that were not shared. Why not? Because you were pushing a different understanding of the verses. The context only favors your understanding if you restrict the meaning of the word. But there are other definitions that fit the context. It's not a good faith dealing in consideration with the definition.
And I didn't change the definition. I simply added other accepted definitions.
You did give one understanding of what Jesus was saying. It could mean that Jesus was simply saying pay special attention. That's certainly what He was doing when He says...verily, verily. But when He says...let him who has ears to hear, He may well be distinguishing between those who hear and understand as opposed to those who hear but do not understand. Do you need me to find a published scholar with this understanding?
Jesus in saying...let him who has ears...also includes...what the Spirit says. He isn't speaking to everyone. Unsaved people do not hear the Spirit. Hearing the Spirit wouldn't even be audible hearing. It would engender spiritual insight. Another scholar necessary?

 

[Rufus]

Rather strange the people who preach "inability" are the ones with the "inability" to believe what is in scripture!

What's even stranger is that the people who preach FWT and say they can see nevertheless cannot believe Jesus when he said that such prideful people who boast in their sight remain in their sin!

 

[Magenta]

Yes I believe what the scriptures says and not what tthe tulip says. Anen!

Do you not know how to quote? Accusing people of pushing tulip is just a way to avoid addressing all the Scriptures I give in support of my position which you cannot counter because you have zero Scriptures to support yours. None. In fact I have so many Scriptures in support of my position it is impossible to put them all on one panel. Even just putting a lot of them on one panel makes the text very very small...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

They love to believe that they are autonomous beings who know what is best for their own lives.

acctually “they” are the ones saying they need to repent and accept Gods judgements instead of living by thier own understanding God onows what’s best for thier lives and also knows what will destroy them so he told them and said believe me and live

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 4 verse 4 ~ The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the image of God.