Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

@fredoheaven please tell me which of these Scriptural truths you disagree with. Oh, and by the way, man's inability is not exclusively taught in Calvinism. Just thought you ought to know that... not that telling those who are willfully ignorant does much good... but there is always hope!

Man’s heart is deceitful above all things and incurable (Jer 17 v 9), himself full of evil (Mark 7 v 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 v 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 v 44), does not seek for God (Rom 3 v 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom 5 v 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh (Rom 7 v 18), is a slave of sin (Rom 6 v 20, John 8 v 34, 2 Tim 2 v 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Cor 2 v 14), is dead in his sins (Eph 2 v 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph 2 v 3), is at enmity with God (Eph 2 v 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Rom 8 v 7), blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4 v 4), hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his evil deeds will be exposed (John 3 v 20). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the unregenerated man in Scripture that his inborn inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 v 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph 1 v 4), predestines us to adoption (Eph 1 v 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim 1 v 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thes 2 v 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom 2 v 4, 2 Tim 2 v 24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil 1 v 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 v 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Pet 1 v 3), born again not by our will, effort or desire but by His will and desire (John 1 v 12-13), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 v 65), draws people to Himself (John 6 v 44), predestines us to salvation (Rom 8 v 29-30), and circumcises our heart (with the heart one believes [Rom 10 v 10]) as promised in Deut 30 v 6, all according to His purpose (Phil 2 v 13). The stony ground of man’s wicked heart is not good soil. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus said so! (Matt 7 v 18 + 12 v 33; Luke 6 v 43). All this and more weighed against zero verses articulating the so-called “free will” of the natural man, which is a vain man-exalting philosophically based doctrine erroneously and egregiously elevated to Bible truth. Praise God and to His glory, what is impossible with man is possible with God.

 

[Magenta]

Dear @fredoheaven please tell me if you would, which of these questions you would answer yes to.

What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?

 

[Rufus]

Shirley you jest .

You did mean to say, "Shirley U. Jest", right?

 

[HeIsHere]

Agree. Found him on YT and listened to a couple brief sessions - one very good one Rom8:28 - another on Rom9 that was a "30k foot" view and lacked some detail found in the other one.

I would agree sometimes he is very detailed and other times more general.
He is someone with impact entering debates, showing the inconsistencies with people like James White who teach the "system."
I would say that is his strength.

 

[cv5]

When did God give his grace to the elect?

"So (@Cameron143 ) the you say the cause of faith is.....pre-birth selection super-determinism?"

I will take your response as saying yes to the above statement.

 

[studier]

You seem to believe that you are the only one with tools or that the scholar you prize is the lone scholar.

You seem to jump into ad hominem and misunderstanding. All I told you is that I have things that you will not get access to via Google. To expand upon this, I know of some of the resources available on public domain and I know that they are not the ones most relied upon in scholarship today. And, I never said anything about a lone scholar. I read things on different points of view seeking mostly exegetical arguments in the Text. If you'd like to watch something I just found interesting that comes via discussion on this thread, try this and see what you think:

I employed a simple Google search and found acceptable definitions that were not shared. Why not? Because you were pushing a different understanding of the verses.

And I may even agree with you that those definitions should be considered and discussed, but I'd like to see where you're getting them. Referencing is a very basic practice. Also, if you look back a few pages, I brought up that there is a range of meaning that in fairness should be discussed. Do some work and present it.

The context only favors your understanding if you restrict the meaning of the word. But there are other definitions that fit the context. It's not a good faith dealing in consideration with the definition.

The context supports the definition that is not only primary but also seen not just by me and has been presented by others. Repeat, do some work and present it.

And I didn't change the definition. I simply added other accepted definitions.

You did change the definition of the word as translated by translations as presented. You also added the word "spiritual" to understanding which is not in the definitions but is being added by you to make this section of Scripture compare to Scripture like 1Cor2:14 which I also think you misunderstand in context.

You did give one understanding of what Jesus was saying. It could mean that Jesus was simply saying pay special attention. That's certainly what He was doing when He says...verily, verily. But when He says...let him who has ears to hear, He may well be distinguishing between those who hear and understand as opposed to those who hear but do not understand. Do you need me to find a published scholar with this understanding?

I presented to you what the language says. Third person imperative commands are typically translated with "let him" making it sound like a suggestion or leaving some ambiguity to the English ear. But it's simply a command which is why the NET translated it as it did. You can find whatever you think will help. I know how to read the language, and this is a very simple thing to read. Again, do some work and prove me wrong. Consider the following as you begin. I'm providing several translations in case you think I'm being too selective:

LXA Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say to them, Thus saith the Lord, He that hears, let him hear; and he that is disobedient, let him be disobedient: because it is a provoking house.​

​

NKJ Ezekiel 3:27 "But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.' He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.​

​

NET Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak with you, I will loosen your tongue and you must say to them, 'This is what the sovereign LORD says.' Those who listen will listen, but the indifferent will refuse, for they are a rebellious house.​

​

ESV Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.' He who will hear, let him hear; and he who will refuse to hear, let him refuse, for they are a rebellious house.​

​

NAS Ezekiel 3:27 "But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth, and you will say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God.' He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.​

What do you think Jesus may have been suggesting in using this phrase several times in the Gospels?

Jesus in saying...let him who has ears...also includes...what the Spirit says. He isn't speaking to everyone. Unsaved people do not hear the Spirit. Hearing the Spirit wouldn't even be audible hearing. It would engender spiritual insight. Another scholar necessary?

Scripture please and are you comparing Revelation to the Gospels?

 

[Rufus]

"So (@Cameron143 ) the you say the cause of faith is.....pre-birth selection super-determinism?"

I will take your response as saying yes to the above statement.

With all your mighty, powerful spiritual ability, why can't you answer my question straightforwardly? I asked: When did God give his elect His precious, priceless and indispensable gift of grace?

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, I have.
Will you elaborate, because JW's do deal with words differently (more grammatically than defining) and in doing so remove the deity of Jesus, for example.

It is a matter of what they are hearing and not what you are actually saying.

They have been schooled to attach a particular meaning to a verse/word always, that is why they repeat and repeat.
The words "elect" "flesh" being perfect examples.

Since you are a patient type of person, you have to know what they hear, then you may be able to deprogram, maybe, but not likely on a discussion board.

You are not having a "typical" sort of discussion of comparing understanding and seeing who has the stronger argument, that is who you are, that is not who they are.

This is why they are known to become very testy in discussions.
Do you see what I mean?

 

[fredoheaven]

Romans 1:16 KJV — For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The provision is universally offered 'to every one' yet saves only to those who believes.

2 Timothy 1:10 KJV — But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Speaks of lfe Or regeneration through Christ gospel. It further says

2 Timothy 1:1 KJV — Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

The promise of life(regeneration) is in Christ and simply own by believing or trusting in Christ.

So, salvation and regeneration is the result of believing , trusting in Christ and his gospel.

 

[Magenta]

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

To everyone who believes.

 

[Magenta]

2 Timothy 1:10 KJV — But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Speaks of lfe Or regeneration through Christ gospel.

The gospel is hid to the lost. The unregenerated hear the gospel as foolishness.

So, salvation and regeneration is the result of believing , trusting in Christ and his gospel.

Did you decide/choose to believe what was nonsense to you???

How many times did you "hear" before you "decided" to believe?

 

[cv5]

With all your mighty, powerful spiritual ability, why can't you answer my question straightforwardly? I asked: When did God give his elect His precious, priceless and indispensable gift of grace?

I'm not the one on trial here.

 

[NightTwister]

To everyone who believes.

If it's not just "to everyone who believes", then we're in universalism territory.

 

[Magenta]

If it's not just "to everyone who believes", then we're in universalism territory.

Many of the free willing folks keep leaving that part off.

Starts looking deliberate after a while...

Especially when certain people do it again and again. And again. And again.

Not saying Fred is one of those.

But there is at least one like that.

Even after being corrected multiple times...

Same person says everyone hears. Jesus said something quite different.

Same person says the gospel is not hid. Scripture says something quite different.

I could go on. The list grows over time. The amount of verses that repeatedly get contradicted and outright denied is long.

 

[sawdust]

Then you don't understand his mind. In his earthly ministry what didi you see him doing? what did he teach? did you ever see him teach to bring a sword or to argue amongst each other? or did you see him teach love compassion forgiveness and patience?

Did you not read what I posted? In His earthly ministry he wielded a machaira. In His glorified ministry He wields a romphaia. I showed you the scriptures. Go argue with them.

 

[sawdust]

You showed me what Jesus came to do not what or how his mind works, everything that came from his mouth concerning us was about love and patience and forgiveness his role is not his mind and if you understood his mind then you would not equate it to that of a sword.

and also just because Peter had a sword and cut off the servants ear has nothing to do with Christ's mind now when Jesus said to him turn the other cheek and healed the servants ear that is his mind.

I showed you the two types of sword He wields. You can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen as they say. He is Lord of Hosts which translates to Lord of the Armies. He is as much a Warrior as He is a Lover. Deal with it.

 

[studier]

It is a matter of what they are hearing and not what you are actually saying.

Same issue with what they are reading, which is why I was asking @Cameron143 to define a word.

They have been schooled to attach a particular meaning to a verse/word always, that is why they repeat and repeat.
The words "elect" "flesh" being perfect examples.

Agree.

Since you are a patient type of person, you have to know what they hear, then you may be able to deprogram, maybe, but not likely on a discussion board.

It's good for me to have them explain what they hear. Thanks for @Cameron143 for doing so. I'd have to consider any thoughts about deprogramming. I'm mostly just trying to get down to the basic facts and agree or disagree with them with reasoning FROM the Text. Although I've had some along the way say such discussions enabled them to see something helpful, it's very rare and not expected. I'm refreshed by reading others posting in line with Truth.

You are not having a "typical" sort of discussion of comparing understanding and seeing who has the stronger argument, that is who you are, that is not who they are.

Understood.

This is why they are known to become very testy in discussions.
Do you see what I mean?

Yes.

Thanks for the input!

 

[sawdust]

Regenerated means to be made alive..
you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

I know what it means Cameron. Regeneration is being made spiritually alive. This is our salvation from death of which, are the wages of sin. You have God saving you before you believe. That makes you being saved as an unbeliever. God does not save unbelievers no matter how much you want to believe it is so.

 

[HeIsHere]

Same issue with what they are reading, which is why I was asking @Cameron143 to define a word.

Sometimes that can work, they usually have all that covered too.
Signed
Ms. Debbie Downer, lol

I'm refreshed by reading others posting in line with Truth.

Absolutely!!

Signed.
Ms. Deb Downer on the Upward Trend.

 

[Magenta]

Sometimes that can work, they usually have all that covered too.
Signed
Ms. Debbie Downer, lol

God forbid you should ask studier to define a word. You get a big long mess ending with, it doesn't mean what it plainly says.