The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

[Psalm1]

This sounds like the answer a Catholic would give. Are you a Catholic?

You seem so level headed.
I enjoy most of your posts.

 

[GWH]

Actually Ephesians 2:8 reveals we are saved through faith. I'm sure you would agree by and through differ in meaning. Thanks for the discussion.

Yes. The verse means "we are saved through (because God provides) grace (that is accepted) by faith."
God initiates; sinners may cooperate--or not.

Looking forward to further discussion on other topics.

 

[Wansvic]

Yes. The verse means "we are saved through (because God provides) grace (that is accepted) by faith."
God initiates; sinners may cooperate--or not.

Looking forward to further discussion on other topics.

Yep, God sure did provide a way. (Acts 2:4-42)

Thanks.

 

[rogerg]

Being filled with the Holy Ghost is an essential element of the NT rebirth.

Please take note to the following:
Acts 4:8 expresses Peter was filled with the Holy Ghost. This scripture doesn't indicate another filling took place, just that Peter was an individual who was filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 4:29-Notice Peter 's prayer concerned other servants. His prayer was answered in verse 31. They, the other servants, were all filled with the Holy Ghost. It is the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost that makes healing, signs and wonders in the name of Jesus possible. Peter was not praying for himself, he was already doing this; he was already a born again believer. (Acts 3:6..., 4:7)

"And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

Again, the primary point of my post was intended to be Christ as Savior - that salvation is not, nor can it be of/by men in any sense. Being filled was a secondary minor point, but for some reason, you choose to focus on it. In terms of the gospel message, while important and informational, the doctrine of being filled pales into insignificance when compared against salvation's centerpiece and foundational doctrine which is Christ alone as Savior and His role in it. So, with that in mind, this will probably be my last reply regarding being filled.

However, should you desire to reply further, please feel free to do so.

I won't attempt to critique each of your points, but instead, will give my understanding of those verses.
It may just be that we will have to agree to disagree on this particular topic.

I believe those specific individuals who were saved below - those who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit - were taught by God by which they came to an intellectual conscious understanding of and belief in the gospel of Christ, apart from being "filled". On the other hand, the purpose for becoming filled, was to illuminate and communicate certain specific spiritual truths and revelations from God that He wanted made known and/or emphasized, at specific moments in time by specific people, through them being "filled". That is, the first, belief, was unto them by God inwardly; the second, being filled by the Holy Ghost, through them, unto others outwardly. In my opinion, a big and fundamental difference between the two spiritual states.

4:8 Peter became filled. But because 4:8 begins with the word "Then", it denotes the start of a (new) filling - with "Then" meaning at that time. If Peter actually became filled in 2:4 and it continued into 4:8 and beyond, being "filled" would be continuous, but as an aorist passive participle, it suggests that he became filled immediately prior to that particular event. Being continuously filled is not an appropriate interpretation for that usage of the word "filled" in that context, as I understand it" (although I am not expert in Greek).
4:23 denotes that the filling ended because the spiritual revelation had been given by Peter - that which God wanted illuminated was completed, so there was no further need to remain filled - the duration of the filling coincided with delivery of the message.
4:31 which you did not address - the "and when" denotes the beginning of a (new) filling, at which time, they "ALL" became filled with/by the Holy Ghost: by that "all", we see it included Peter as he too was part of the "all", from which, they ALL "spoke the word of God with boldness" - the purpose of the filling was that they speak thus. Were those who were present with Peter also filled at some time in the past so that the filling was continuous for them too? I don't think so because they were all part of the same event and filling - a filling that came as a result of their prayer, but not before it, so what happened to one happened to all. After they "spoke the word of God" their task ended, along with their filling. To me, the "all", clearly demonstrates that Peter, along with the others, became filled at the same time. If Peter became filled (via the "all"), then he wouldn't still have been filled from the past, demonstrating that being filled is a temporary state for a specific purpose, not a perpetually continuing state forever (at least not for this life). Any two verses (or more) that demonstrate Peter clearly was filled in both, such as with 2:4, and 4:31, means being filled occurred on a situational basis only, and could not be continuing spiritual condition.
4:32 notice that it does not say "the multitude of them that believed and are filled" - with the "them" representing at least some of those of 4:31; it instead says only: "the multitude of them that believed" - with "filled" not included. Given that "believed" is a continuing spiritual state (for those truly saved), and "filled" is also a spiritual state (as much as "believed is) - for those of 4:31- if "filled" was in effect for them, as "believed" was still in effect, it should have been included too - or at least mentioned of in some form - even if in passing: if both were continuing spiritual traits, then both should have been stated, but only believed was stated, meaning they were no longer filled yet believed was: sometimes, the absence of information informs as much as its presence does.

 

[rogerg]

Actually Ephesians 2:8 reveals we are saved through faith. I'm sure you would agree by and through differ in meaning. Thanks for the discussion.

The faith of 2:8 means we are saved through/by Christ's faith, not our faith. Were it ours, then the verses before 2:8, verse 2:8, and the verses after it would be illogical and therefore untrustworthy. Notice the "for" as the first word of 2:8. It links the prior verses to it. Based upon the prior verses and 2:8, our faith cannot be the faith that was intended. Only by Christ's faith was salvation brought to fruition and thereby made salvation able to be given solely as a free gift, as the verse so informs us that it is.

 

[PaulThomson]

Where in scripture did Paul insist water baptism was not necessary?

He didn't, which was my point. If Paul thought demanding water-baptism was legalism and works salvation, as circumcision was, why did Paul include it in his preaching of the gospel, so that those who believed submitted to water baptism, and why did his mission team practise it when people converted? Why did Paul never preach against the necessity of water baptism?

 

[PaulThomson]

Jesus revealed when repentance and remission of sin would begin to be preached in His name in association with His death, burial and resurrection:

Luke 24:46-49
"And (Jesus) said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things.
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

Your comments here do not contradict my own.

 

[GWH]

He didn't, which was my point. If Paul thought demanding water-baptism was legalism and works salvation, as circumcision was, why did Paul include it in his preaching of the gospel, so that those who believed submitted to water baptism, and why did his mission team practise it when people converted? Why did Paul never preach against the necessity of water baptism?

Because Paul never preached against the necessity of any good work, such as WB.
He only preached/advocated the necessity of faith/SB first.

 

[Wansvic]

No, saying "yes" was meant to convey agreement with Luke 6:46-49, which would have been clearer if I had said:
"Yes, and Christ is the rock/foundation referred to in both Luke 6:46-49 and 1Cor. 3:11."

The cornerstone is a critical part of a foundation, it's not the only part. A foundation is a broader structure that supports the entire building. The cornerstone is the first stone laid, setting the alignment for the rest of the foundation. Scripture attests the same:"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Eph. 2:19-20)

Jesus is the chief corner stone. "And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:" Mark 12:10

If you will recall, AFTER telling a group of believers that He never knew them, Jesus begins talking about foundations. (Matt. 7:21-27) That account undoubtedly relates to why Jesus said He never knew those who professed belief in Him. The account in Luke actually reveals the foundation must be LAID UPON the rock. (Luke 6:47-48)


The Book of Hebrews reveals the foundation and it parallels requirements established in the NT gospel message: Belief in Jesus Christ, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receiving the Holy Ghost. Consider as well that Jesus said, truly, truly, I say, except (unless) a man is born of water and of Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5)

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation (meaning it has to be laid) of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:1-2

 

[Wansvic]

Again, the primary point of my post was intended to be Christ as Savior - that salvation is not, nor can it be of/by men in any sense. Being filled was a secondary minor point, but for some reason, you choose to focus on it. In terms of the gospel message, while important and informational, the doctrine of being filled pales into insignificance when compared against salvation's centerpiece and foundational doctrine which is Christ alone as Savior and His role in it. So, with that in mind, this will probably be my last reply regarding being filled.

However, should you desire to reply further, please feel free to do so.

I won't attempt to critique each of your points, but instead, will give my understanding of those verses.
It may just be that we will have to agree to disagree on this particular topic.

I believe those specific individuals who were saved below - those who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit - were taught by God by which they came to an intellectual conscious understanding of and belief in the gospel of Christ, apart from being "filled". On the other hand, the purpose for becoming filled, was to illuminate and communicate certain specific spiritual truths and revelations from God that He wanted made known and/or emphasized, at specific moments in time by specific people, through them being "filled". That is, the first, belief, was unto them by God inwardly; the second, being filled by the Holy Ghost, through them, unto others outwardly. In my opinion, a big and fundamental difference between the two spiritual states.

4:8 Peter became filled. But because 4:8 begins with the word "Then", it denotes the start of a (new) filling - with "Then" meaning at that time. If Peter actually became filled in 2:4 and it continued into 4:8 and beyond, being "filled" would be continuous, but as an aorist passive participle, it suggests that he became filled immediately prior to that particular event. Being continuously filled is not an appropriate interpretation for that usage of the word "filled" in that context, as I understand it" (although I am not expert in Greek).
4:23 denotes that the filling ended because the spiritual revelation had been given by Peter - that which God wanted illuminated was completed, so there was no further need to remain filled - the duration of the filling coincided with delivery of the message.
4:31 which you did not address - the "and when" denotes the beginning of a (new) filling, at which time, they "ALL" became filled with/by the Holy Ghost: by that "all", we see it included Peter as he too was part of the "all", from which, they ALL "spoke the word of God with boldness" - the purpose of the filling was that they speak thus. Were those who were present with Peter also filled at some time in the past so that the filling was continuous for them too? I don't think so because they were all part of the same event and filling - a filling that came as a result of their prayer, but not before it, so what happened to one happened to all. After they "spoke the word of God" their task ended, along with their filling. To me, the "all", clearly demonstrates that Peter, along with the others, became filled at the same time. If Peter became filled (via the "all"), then he wouldn't still have been filled from the past, demonstrating that being filled is a temporary state for a specific purpose, not a perpetually continuing state forever (at least not for this life). Any two verses (or more) that demonstrate Peter clearly was filled in both, such as with 2:4, and 4:31, means being filled occurred on a situational basis only, and could not be continuing spiritual condition.
4:32 notice that it does not say "the multitude of them that believed and are filled" - with the "them" representing at least some of those of 4:31; it instead says only: "the multitude of them that believed" - with "filled" not included. Given that "believed" is a continuing spiritual state (for those truly saved), and "filled" is also a spiritual state (as much as "believed is) - for those of 4:31- if "filled" was in effect for them, as "believed" was still in effect, it should have been included too - or at least mentioned of in some form - even if in passing: if both were continuing spiritual traits, then both should have been stated, but only believed was stated, meaning they were no longer filled yet believed was: sometimes, the absence of information informs as much as its presence does.

I believe you are reading something into the account due to your bias.

"Then" pertains to what happened next. Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, responds to the people's question. It doesn't say he was filled at that moment as I explained in the previous post. It just states the one responding to the people's question at that point in time is an individal who is filled with the Holy Ghost.

"And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole." Acts 4:7-10

 

[Wansvic]

The faith of 2:8 means we are saved through/by Christ's faith, not our faith. Were it ours, then the verses before 2:8, verse 2:8, and the verses after it would be illogical and therefore untrustworthy. Notice the "for" as the first word of 2:8. It links the prior verses to it. Based upon the prior verses and 2:8, our faith cannot be the faith that was intended. Only by Christ's faith was salvation brought to fruition and thereby made salvation able to be given solely as a free gift, as the verse so informs us that it is.

Faith involves obedience. Paul made the statements; Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. (Rom. 10:12) And not all have obeyed the gospel, meaning action is required. (Rom. 10:16)

 

[rogerg]

Faith involves obedience. Paul made the statements; Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. (Rom. 10:12) And not all have obeyed the gospel, meaning action is required. (Rom. 10:16)

No, no action is required to be saved - it comes exclusively as free gift by God's grace through Jesus Christ the Savior,
otherwise, you would make of yourself a savior but not have Jesus Christ as the Savior.
Obeyance of the gospel is in coming to a true and abiding belief and trust in Christ alone as the Savior sent from/by the Father.
That obeyance and obedience is the byproduct of faith, and faith the byproduct of salvation, all of which, are the free gifts
of God given to those for whom it was intended.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Rom 1:5-6 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

 

[GWH]

No, no action is required to be saved - it comes exclusively as free gift by God's grace through Jesus Christ the Savior,
otherwise, you would make of yourself a savior but not have Jesus Christ as the Savior.
Obeyance of the gospel is in coming to a true and abiding belief and trust in Christ alone as the Savior sent from/by the Father.
That obeyance and obedience is the byproduct of faith, and faith the byproduct of salvation, all of which, are the free gifts
of God given to those for whom it was intended.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Rom 1:5-6 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Yes, no action is required, but No, yes a condition must be met.
If only God is responsible, then souls are NOT accountable.
Robots and animals are sinless.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, no action is required, but No, yes a condition must be met.
If only God is responsible, then souls are NOT accountable.
Robots and animals are sinless.

Nothing whatsoever was/is required from those saved in order to become saved. And that is what makes Christ THE Savior and salvation solely by God's grace, and not by our works, no matter how trivial those works may seem - any supposed requirement on our part to become saved, would make it our work. There is only ONE Savior and that is Christ.
As THE Savior, He alone met and satisfied all conditions and requirements for salvation on the behalf of those elected by God to salvation.

 

[GWH]

You either didn't read or understand the verses I posted, huh? Okay, I'll reply to a few (not all) of your verses because I'm not going to make a career out of your post - anyway, there's a good chance that you either won't understand or accept them, so this is probably a complete waste of time.

True belief is given to those whom God saves as a gift- those chosen to salvation. True belief is not of them but of God

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 1:17 is actually saying "from faith to faith'. It means that the righteousness of God is revealed because He reckons or imputes the faith of Christ - the "from faith" to those chosen to salvation which also gives to them Christ's righteousness - given to those He saves - the "to faith". True faith does not come from them.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

No it does not imply that. It doesn't say "brought close", instead "leadeth to": giving or granting repentance.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Act 11:18 KJV] 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

You interpret it that way because you didn't read or understand the verses I provided. Those who do not repent, do not, because
God has not changed their hearts. They have the heart of a natural man, which heart, of itself, will/can never repent. It has to first be changed by God and with that, repentance comes. Here is another version of the same thing. Do you see that God must give a new heart of flesh and take away the stony heart. Until and unless He first does that they will never repent.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

I think what you miss is that some verses are foundational, providing the basis upon which other verses have been built.
Until you recognize, and correctly understand the foundational ones, your interpretations of the verses built upon them, will be incorrect. Not all verses are equal in terms of impact.

Perhaps I didn't understand your point that some do not repent because they have the heart of a natural man, which has to first be changed by God and with that, repentance comes. You asked "Do you see that God must give a new heart of flesh and take away the stony heart?" [Eze. 36:26] Discussions on CC have prompted me to add this to our website:

{{God’s condition for forgiveness of sins that is indicated in Scripture by the word “IF” (e.g., Rom. 10:9), which is the fulcrum of faith, implying the ability either to cooperate with God or not (e.g., Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37) or MFW. Note that the choice is binary: God’s Way to heaven or the highway to hell. Thus, sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will, so every normal adult soul is able by faith to choose to seek salvation–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). That is why Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4)! Regarding the human heart, we can see that it is “deceitful… and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9) when it becomes calloused (cf. Matt. 23:37), but the uncalloused heart is enabled to seek salvation and find God (per Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6). God’s enabling of seeking is not irresistible, it does not pry open a hardened heart, and it does not continue forever (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).]]

Also, I think I missed your good point that "some verses are foundational, providing the basis upon which other verses have been built.
Until you recognize, and correctly understand the foundational ones, your interpretations of the verses built upon them, will be incorrect. Not all verses are equal in terms of impact." I affirm this point when sharing my hermeneutic as follows:

[[ As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements. First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Seven Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: 1JN 4:7-12, RM 5:8, MT 5:44&48, GL 5:6&14, EPH 3:17b-19, EPH 5:2 and 1TM 2:3-4, which might be deemed the “7 pearls”. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ). Second, God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (PS 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” ]]

 

[GWH]

There is no beleiving you are filled, you either are or your not!!

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

IT'S A PROMISE TO ALL.

Just noticed this point: Yes, believers are either Spirit-filled or not, and love is the evidence of filling
that justifies believing someone is filled (and the basis of spiritual unity) per John 13:35.

 

[rogerg]

Perhaps I didn't understand your point that some do not repent because they have the heart of a natural man, which has to first be changed by God and with that, repentance comes. You asked "Do you see that God must give a new heart of flesh and take away the stony heart?" [Eze. 36:26] Discussions on CC have prompted me to add this to our website:

No problem. But it isn't just "some" that don't repent, it is that no one of the unsaved repent. Salvation must be given first, from/with/by it, comes all of the attributes of salvation: true faith/belief in Christ, repentance, et al - all part of being placed by God under the New Covenant, at which time, God forgives all sin. It is all by God, nothing by man.

{{God’s condition for forgiveness of sins that is indicated in Scripture by the word “IF” (e.g., Rom. 10:9), which is the fulcrum of faith, implying the ability either to cooperate with God or not (e.g., Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37) or MFW. Note that the choice is binary: God’s Way to heaven or the highway to hell. Thus, sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will, so every normal adult soul is able by faith to choose to seek salvation–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). That is why Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4)! Regarding the human heart, we can see that it is “deceitful… and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9) when it becomes calloused (cf. Matt. 23:37), but the uncalloused heart is enabled to seek salvation and find God (per Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6). God’s enabling of seeking is not irresistible, it does not pry open a hardened heart, and it does not continue forever (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).]]

What you call "free will" is actually determined and controlled by that which is within a person, from which, one's "free will " is derived. Until and unless its basis is changed, the choices that result from "free will", will not/cannot change. To change that basis, one must first become saved, and by that, the "free will", will, also change, but it coming after the fact. This means that, by God having changed its basis, they had already become saved - their "free will" actually playing no part in their transition. Instead, from the new basis, it was manifested into and became their new "free will". So, to choose Jesus as Savoir, comes from that new "free will", not by the old "free will". Were salvation actually dependent upon the free will of unsaved man, then no one could ever become saved.
So, no, it is not indicated by an "IF", at least not the way I think you mean it. The "if' doesn't mean choice, it means a particular result - that a particular result was manifested, which result (not choice), is not always manifested. The "if" therefore says nothing about someone's choice being a prerequisite to it - that is something you inferred but not actually there. Why it happens, is a different matter entirely. Anyway, the "shalt be saved" of Roman's 10:9 is actually referring to a future event (in a future tense). It is not saying that someone becomes immediately saved by their choice. if salvation were actually a matter of choice, it would have been stated in the present tense, not in the future tense. Matt 23:37 is not speaking about the salvation of individuals, instead, it is of the ending of the corporate Jewish religious infrastructure (" your HOUSE is left unto you desolate" ) as God's mechanism/tool for the communicating and teaching of His true gospel - that those who are to become saved will not learn/find the true gospel from within the corporate Jewish religion - it became antithetical to true Christianity.
The unsaved heart is a heart of stone, not of callous.

People are given true faith as a result of salvation; they do not, nor can they, obtain it prior to salvation. It is given as a fruit of the Spirit; the Spirit is given with being born-again; being born-again from salvation. Observe:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Again, with persuasion, as with choice - in and of themselves - they don't address why someone became persuaded nor why they chose as they did, only what the end result was, not cause. In both cases - if truly persuaded and a true choice made - it was from something that preceded it - namely, in first becoming saved. God informed us that He gives us a renewed mind, and places His laws into it, gives us a heart of flesh, into which He writes them, and he forgives our sin at the time He places us under the New Covenant which is salvation itself. Before becoming saved we were dead spiritually and as dead, incapable of giving anything of a spiritual nature unto ourselves.

I'm not going to go through all of the above, but you should be able to get an idea of what I'm trying to get at

Also, I think I missed your good point that "some verses are foundational, providing the basis upon which other verses have been built.
Until you recognize, and correctly understand the foundational ones, your interpretations of the verses built upon them, will be incorrect. Not all verses are equal in terms of impact." I affirm this point when sharing my hermeneutic as follows:

[[ As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements. First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Seven Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: 1JN 4:7-12, RM 5:8, MT 5:44&48, GL 5:6&14, EPH 3:17b-19, EPH 5:2 and 1TM 2:3-4, which might be deemed the “7 pearls”. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ). Second, God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (PS 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” ]]

I'm sure that it goes without saying I am in total and complete disagreement with your statement immediately above.
Were it true, then salvation would be dependent upon man's actions, thereby invalidating God's grace alone through Christ for salvation, which thereby invalidates Christ alone as Savior. For those so chosen for it, they are but salvation's recipient - with no part to play besides that - we are not givers of salvation, even in the slightest degree - it is Christ who alone bears the title of Savior, man does not.

No offense intended, but I suggest you focus on what the role of Savior is, and what it was that He had already achieved and accomplished.

 

[Ouch]

Just noticed this point: Yes, believers are either Spirit-filled or not, and love is the evidence of filling
that justifies believing someone is filled (and the basis of spiritual unity) per John 13:35.

HIS WORD.

People FILLED with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10:45-46
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

ACCORDING TO PETER WHO HAS THE KEYS TO HEAVEN!!!

Acts 2:33
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

ACCORDING TO MARK.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

ACCORDING TO YOU!!!

Yes, believers are either Spirit-filled or not, and love is the evidence of filling
that justifies believing someone is filled (and the basis of spiritual unity) per John 13:35.

SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO WAS FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT AND THEY GOT LOVE INSTEAD OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES.

PROVE IT IN HIS WORD OR IT'S A LIE FROM SATAN.

 

[GWH]

No problem. But it isn't just "some" that don't repent, it is that no one of the unsaved repent. Salvation must be given first, from/with/by it, comes all of the attributes of salvation: true faith/belief in Christ, repentance, et al - all part of being placed by God under the New Covenant, at which time, God forgives all sin. It is all by God, nothing by man.



What you call "free will" is actually determined and controlled by that which is within a person, from which, one's "free will " is derived. Until and unless its basis is changed, the choices that result from "free will", will not/cannot change. To change that basis, one must first become saved, and by that, the "free will", will, also change, but it coming after the fact. This means that, by God having changed its basis, they had already become saved - their "free will" actually playing no part in their transition. Instead, from the new basis, it was manifested into and became their new "free will". So, to choose Jesus as Savoir, comes from that new "free will", not by the old "free will". Were salvation actually dependent upon the free will of unsaved man, then no one could ever become saved.
So, no, it is not indicated by an "IF", at least not the way I think you mean it. The "if' doesn't mean choice, it means a particular result - that a particular result was manifested, which result (not choice), is not always manifested. The "if" therefore says nothing about someone's choice being a prerequisite to it - that is something you inferred but not actually there. Why it happens, is a different matter entirely. Anyway, the "shalt be saved" of Roman's 10:9 is actually referring to a future event (in a future tense). It is not saying that someone becomes immediately saved by their choice. if salvation were actually a matter of choice, it would have been stated in the present tense, not in the future tense. Matt 23:37 is not speaking about the salvation of individuals, instead, it is of the ending of the corporate Jewish religious infrastructure (" your HOUSE is left unto you desolate" ) as God's mechanism/tool for the communicating and teaching of His true gospel - that those who are to become saved will not learn/find the true gospel from within the corporate Jewish religion - it became antithetical to true Christianity.
The unsaved heart is a heart of stone, not of callous.

People are given true faith as a result of salvation; they do not, nor can they, obtain it prior to salvation. It is given as a fruit of the Spirit; the Spirit is given with being born-again; being born-again from salvation. Observe:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Again, with persuasion, as with choice - in and of themselves - they don't address why someone became persuaded nor why they chose as they did, only what the end result was, not cause. In both cases - if truly persuaded and a true choice made - it was from something that preceded it - namely, in first becoming saved. God informed us that He gives us a renewed mind, and places His laws into it, gives us a heart of flesh, into which He writes them, and he forgives our sin at the time He places us under the New Covenant which is salvation itself. Before becoming saved we were dead spiritually and as dead, incapable of giving anything of a spiritual nature unto ourselves.

I'm not going to go through all of the above, but you should be able to get an idea of what I'm trying to get at



I'm sure that it goes without saying I am in total and complete disagreement with your statement immediately above.
Were it true, then salvation would be dependent upon man's actions, thereby invalidating God's grace alone through Christ for salvation, which thereby invalidates Christ alone as Savior. For those so chosen for it, they are but salvation's recipient - with no part to play besides that - we are not givers of salvation, even in the slightest degree - it is Christ who alone bears the title of Savior, man does not.

No offense intended, but I suggest you focus on what the role of Savior is, and what it was that He had already achieved and accomplished.

No, you suggest that there is no need for us to do anything, because God does everything.
It is amazing to see how far some folks will bend over backward to avoid agreeing with the plain sense of Scripture!

 

[GWH]

HIS WORD.

People FILLED with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10:45-46
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

ACCORDING TO PETER WHO HAS THE KEYS TO HEAVEN!!!

Acts 2:33
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

ACCORDING TO MARK.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

ACCORDING TO YOU!!!

Yes, believers are either Spirit-filled or not, and love is the evidence of filling
that justifies believing someone is filled (and the basis of spiritual unity) per John 13:35.

SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO WAS FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT AND THEY GOT LOVE INSTEAD OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES.

PROVE IT IN HIS WORD OR IT'S A LIE FROM SATAN.

Jesus and Paul for starters, then millions of Christians through the centuries since.