The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

[GWH]

But that would make of us our own savior and Christ not the Savior, because should anyone achieve those things, they, in effect, would obtain salvation by their efforts; and should they not do them, then they would not obtain salvation, thus making Christ into a fait accompli of sorts only carrying out the results of their actions, but Christ alone is THE Savior. To actually be the Savior, He alone must do the saving - every bit of it with nothing remaining outside of it yet to be satisfied by anyone. By that, we know that the only faith that saves was Christ's faith, not ours; the only works that saves were Christ's works, not ours; the only obedience that saves was Christ's obedience, not ours; the only righteousness that saves, was Christ righteousness, not ours.
So, regarding the verses you quoted, while I do not intend to go through each one to give you my perception of their intent or of what they actually represent, I will try to approach it from a higher perspective - with the questions then being: who satisfies them, why do they satisfy them, and how do they satisfy them? I think the verses below provide answers to that. Notice in the New Covenant, that for those He places under it, that God alone assumes full responsibility for completion - and along with/by that, He also gives full forgiveness of sin - with nothing yet remaining to be satisfied - with the New Covenant then being the salvation process itself.
So, while God demands conformance to His spiritual requirements, He had also satisfied those requirements, and by that, instills within us the desire to conform to them, but that from salvation, not prerequisites to salvation. Were it otherwise, it would mean the replacing of the requirements/works of the Old Covenant with different requirements/works of the New Covenant - works which would still have to be satisfied by us but which would be beyond our abilities to do so, and salvation would not be by grace as we are told it is, but instead by works.

[Heb 1:3 KJV]
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[Heb 8:10-13 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

[Heb 10:12, 14, 16-18 KJV]
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; ...
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ...
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

No, accepting God's grace/gift does NOT make a person their our own savior!
Such illogic is amazing, not to mention anti-Scripture!

On the other hand, "Christ alone- every bit of it with nothing remaining outside of it yet to be satisfied by anyone" makes humans robots, again anti-Scripture and making the entire history-long plan of salvation to be a farce, as well as making God unloving and unjust!

 

[rogerg]

No, accepting God's grace/gift does NOT make a person their our own savior!
Such illogic is amazing, not to mention anti-Scripture!

On the other hand, "Christ alone- every bit of it with nothing remaining outside of it yet to be satisfied by anyone" makes humans robots, again anti-Scripture and making the entire history-long plan of salvation to be a farce, as well as making God unloving and unjust!

It is the very essence of the gospel itself. Just because you say otherwise doesn't make it so. But by saying that you demonstrate a total and complete lack of understanding of the nature of Christ, grace, and its power. Were it even possible to do even the smallest of actions, including acceptance (which it isn't), salvation would then rest upon the person who must do it, not Christ, which would make them into their own savior or not, depending. But salvation is through Christ alone as Savior in all ways and not dependent upon anything that man may do - originating with God's choosing of them for salvation, and all else by grace. Did you understand the verses I included? They are very clear.

 

[Ouch]

The basis for believing we are filled with the HS is reflecting the love of God for everyone.
(Matt 22:37-40, 1John 4:7-21, John 13:35, Rom. 5:5, Gal. 5:6 & 22, etc.)

There is no beleiving you are filled, you either are or your not!!

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

IT'S A PROMISE TO ALL.

 

[Ouch]

Nope, that didn’t help.

I can only pray the seeds I have planted grow.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[rogerg]

No, accepting God's grace/gift does NOT make a person their our own savior!

But just to be clear, those saved absolutely accept and believe it God's grace and Christ as Savior as true, but that is the result of salvation it does not bring salvation

 

[GWH]

It is the very essence of the gospel itself. Just because you say otherwise doesn't make it so. But by saying that you demonstrate a total and complete lack of understanding of the nature of Christ, grace, and its power. Were it even possible to do even the smallest of actions, including acceptance (which it isn't), salvation would then rest upon the person who must do it, not Christ, which would make them into their own savior or not, depending. But salvation is through Christ alone as Savior in all ways and not dependent upon anything that man may do - originating with God's choosing of them for salvation, and all else by grace. Did you understand the verses I included? They are very clear.

No, just because YOU disbelieve the Gospel does not make your TULIP dogma so.

And here is part of the Scripture you disbelieve:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that salvation/election (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.

EPH 1:7, “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the abundance/riches of God’s grace”.

This refers to salvation promised in the Law and Prophets because of Christ’s death on the cross, and to the redemption that is valued as spiritual wealth, echoing v. 5 and connecting with v. 3 as well as with the grace of God in v.6, even though some may reject it (cf. Eph. 3:8 & 16).

EPH 1:11, “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

“Chosen” means saved by faith in Christ, including Paul, and predestined repeats the term used in v.5 to refer to “from creation” per v.4. according to God’s POS or will as in v. 9-10. God’s sovereignty is stressed by the repetition and means that God is in control of history so that His plan will be achieved as He determines.

EPH 1:12, “in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.”

This refers to Paul and other apostles or disciples of Jesus who received the Gospel before the Ephesians, whose lives should be a reason for praising deity because of the Christlike behavior/love.

EPH 1:13-14, “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

The believers being addressed heard Paul’s Gospel and believed, so they received the Holy Spirit, who is like a seal stamped on a letter or an advance deposit on an account, guaranteeing their future in heaven, again so that God would be praised, echoing v.12. EPH 1:3-14 is one sentence in the Greek.

EPH 2:1-3, “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins wherein you walked when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the children of unbelief. All of us lived among them at one time, participating in the lusts of our sinful flesh and mind, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.”

Sinners are spiritually dead and bound for hell before being saved, when they practiced the morality of the ungodly that is the environment of sinners, and the ruler of the ungodly is the devil or Satan, who indwells atheists and works evil using them.

EPH 2:4-6, “But because of his great love for us, God, being rich in mercy, makes us who are dead in transgressions alive with Christ, saved and being saved by grace. And He raises us up with Him and seats us with Him in the heavens.”

God’s love and for all sinners (per Rom.5:5-8 and 1Tim.2:3-4) and mercy for those who repent transforms those who whose wages were is death (per Rom.6:23) into those who are alive because of faith in Jesus as Lord (per 2Cor.4:5 & Col.2:6). Conversion and sanctification are not by works (per Eph.2:8-10). The future resurrection when the saints will share Christ’s blessings is viewed as being present.

EPH 2:7-10, “In order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

The purpose of God’s POS is that in the present (NT) age God might reveal “the incomparable riches” of eternal life in heaven, experienced as kindness because of the atonement of CJ. Such salvation or heaven is a gift received via faith. All we have is gifted by God per 1Cor. 4:7, and so salvation is not earned; faith is not meritorious. The reason for God’s creation of a holy humanity is so they will reflect His love to all manifested by good works, which are the fruit of the HS (Gal. 5:22-23) and a way of life in which we should walk.

 

[rogerg]

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that salvation/election (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

You either didn't read or understand the verses I posted, huh? Okay, I'll reply to a few (not all) of your verses because I'm not going to make a career out of your post - anyway, there's a good chance that you either won't understand or accept them, so this is probably a complete waste of time.

True belief is given to those whom God saves as a gift- those chosen to salvation. True belief is not of them but of God

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

Romans 1:17 is actually saying "from faith to faith'. It means that the righteousness of God is revealed because He reckons or imputes the faith of Christ - the "from faith" to those chosen to salvation which also gives to them Christ's righteousness - given to those He saves - the "to faith". True faith does not come from them.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

No it does not imply that. It doesn't say "brought close", instead "leadeth to": giving or granting repentance.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Act 11:18 KJV] 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

You interpret it that way because you didn't read or understand the verses I provided. Those who do not repent, do not, because
God has not changed their hearts. They have the heart of a natural man, which heart, of itself, will/can never repent. It has to first be changed by God and with that, repentance comes. Here is another version of the same thing. Do you see that God must give a new heart of flesh and take away the stony heart. Until and unless He first does that they will never repent.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

I think what you miss is that some verses are foundational, providing the basis upon which other verses have been built.
Until you recognize, and correctly understand the foundational ones, your interpretations of the verses built upon them, will be incorrect. Not all verses are equal in terms of impact.

 

[GWH]

You either didn't read or understand the verses I posted, huh? Okay, I'll reply to a few (not all) of your verses because I'm not going to make a career out of your post - anyway, there's a good chance that you either won't understand or accept them, so this is probably a complete waste of time.

True belief is given to those whom God saves as a gift- those chosen to salvation. True belief is not of them but of God

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 1:17 is actually saying "from faith to faith'. It means that the righteousness of God is revealed because He reckons or imputes the faith of Christ - the "from faith" to those chosen to salvation which also gives to them Christ's righteousness - given to those He saves - the "to faith". True faith does not come from them.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

No it does not imply that. It doesn't say "brought close", instead "leadeth to": giving or granting repentance.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Act 11:18 KJV] 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

You interpret it that way because you didn't read or understand the verses I provided. Those who do not repent, do not, because
God has not changed their hearts. They have the heart of a natural man, which heart, of itself, will/can never repent. It has to first be changed by God and with that, repentance comes. Here is another version of the same thing. Do you see that God must give a new heart of flesh and take away the stony heart. Until and unless He first does that they will never repent.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

I think what you miss is that some verses are foundational, providing the basis upon which other verses have been built.
Until you recognize, and correctly understand the foundational ones, your interpretations of the verses built upon them, will be incorrect. Not all verses are equal in terms of impact.

Re "this is probably a complete waste of time": At least we agree about that, but I will try it this way:

A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 16:31)

Notice that Paul did NOT say what YOU would say: "You don't need to do anything; God will either force you to believe--or not."

Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7).

Notice that Jesus did NOT say what you would have said: "Don't bother to ask, seek or knock, because God will either save you or not."

Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19), whereas you would have written "God rewards
folks whether they seek Him or not."

Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4), witnessing to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (Acts 28:23b) But you would have told Paul, "Don't bother witnessing and trying to persuade folks, because God does it all.

Acts 28:24 reports that “Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.” But you would report that "God forced some to believe, but not those He did not love."

Paul made this statement that might apply to yourself: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving (Acts 28:25-26), because the human heart is “deceitful… and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9) when it becomes calloused (cf. Matt. 23:37).

Thus, those who have eyes to see can understand that God enables all sinners sufficient MFW to satisfy the non-meritorious condition of accepting His salvation via faith, but God’s enabling is not irresistible, it does not pry open a hardened heart, and it does not continue forever (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).

 

[rogerg]

A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 16:31)

True belief in Jesus comes as a result of being saved. No one can force even themselves to believe in something they just don't believe in, nor to not believe in that which they do believe in. For a time, many people believe intellectually but it not being of the heart they fall away eventually. When someone is given true belief, it resides in the heart, is from God, and never departs.

[Jhn 12:37-38 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7).

Notice that Jesus did NOT say what you would have said: "Don't bother to ask, seek or knock, because God will either save you or not."

Did you read Mat 7:1,9, 11 and 13, 36? It demonstrates that Jesus was speaking to, and only about, God's children, spiritual children, not earthly children or any others. Spiritual children are those who have already become saved. Notice Christ was addressing His disciple, not everyone.

[Luk 11:1 KJV] 1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

[Mat 7:9 KJV] 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
[Mat 7:11 KJV] 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
[Luk 11:13 KJV] 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
[Luk 20:36 KJV] 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4), witnessing to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (Acts 28:23b) But you would have told Paul, "Don't bother witnessing and trying to persuade folks, because God does it all.

Only those elected by God to salvation will believe eventually. It sometimes takes a lot of repetition but sooner or later, they
must and will believe. As an example, look at Saul/Paul and his journey to belief. No one knows fully until the end who the elect are and who aren't of the elect.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Paul made this statement that might apply to yourself: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving (Acts 28:25-26), because the human heart is “deceitful… and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9) when it becomes calloused (cf. Matt. 23:37).

I was thinking the same thing about you.
You seem to be unable to comprehend that Christ is actually the one and only Savior - the most basic and important of all gospel doctrines of all - that it is Christ who saves, but you would bestow that honor instead upon man.

I'm out.

 

[GWH]

True belief in Jesus comes as a result of being saved. No one can force even themselves to believe in something they just don't believe in, nor to not believe in that which they do believe in. For a time, many people believe intellectually but it not being of the heart they fall away eventually. When someone is given true belief, it resides in the heart, is from God, and never departs.

[Jhn 12:37-38 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Did you read Mat 7:1,9, 11 and 13, 36? It demonstrates that Jesus was speaking to, and only about, God's children, spiritual children, not earthly children or any others. Spiritual children are those who have already become saved. Notice Christ was addressing His disciple, not everyone.

[Luk 11:1 KJV] 1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

[Mat 7:9 KJV] 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
[Mat 7:11 KJV] 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
[Luk 11:13 KJV] 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
[Luk 20:36 KJV] 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Only those elected by God to salvation will believe eventually. It sometimes takes a lot of repetition but sooner or later, they
must and will believe. As an example, look at Saul/Paul and his journey to belief. No one knows fully until the end who the elect are and who aren't of the elect.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I was thinking the same thing about you.
You seem to be unable to comprehend that Christ is actually the one and only Savior - the most basic and important of all gospel doctrines of all - that it is Christ who saves, but you would bestow that honor instead upon man.

I'm out.

You appear to intentionally ignore GW: I tried my best in post #928 to get you to comprehend how your view contradicts GW,
but you ignored the examples I gave and did not deny how you pervert those Scriptures--which were just for starters.

Re the kerygma/creed I shared, you ignored that previously, too, so IMO you are out to lunch!

Thus, I will make you the same friendly bet I made Rufus and other TULIPists, that in heaven
we will learn MFWism is closer to correct, because God is omniloving and perfectly just--
and faith is non-meritorious.

Happy trails UWMA!

 

[Wansvic]

Yes, Christ is the rock/foundation referred to in 1Cor. 3:11.

You are ignoring the fact that the scripture states those who hear Jesus' sayings and do them are laying a foundation upon the rock. Luke 6:46-49

 

[GWH]

You are ignoring the fact that the scripture states those who hear Jesus' sayings and do them are laying a foundation upon the rock. Luke 6:46-49

No, saying "yes" was meant to convey agreement with Luke 6:46-49, which would have been clearer if I had said:
"Yes, and Christ is the rock/foundation referred to in both Luke 6:46-49 and 1Cor. 3:11."

 

[Wansvic]

Peter also says this.

I agree with you re: the onus being on man.

Good statements!


Questions: why do you seemingly break this up into two: trust > obedience and do you see trust and belief or faith being different than one another?


Question: Ultimately, is there any other kind of [true] believer?

The point is a person can express belief in Jesus yet not obey Him. Jesus refers to this type of person as a foolish builder. A builder who sets out on the journey without ever experiencing the NT rebirth that includes being indwelt by the Holy Ghost.

Although many refuse to accept it, those at Pentecost who heard and believed in Jesus were not reborn at that moment. They were given specific instructions concerning the NT rebirth. When they asked what they must do, Peter explained that God would give the Holy Ghost to those who repented and were water baptized in Jesus' name. Those who believed and obeyed were added to the church, the body of Christ. (Acts 2:4, 33, 36-42)

The same instruction was later presented to believers in Samaria, (Acts 8:12-18) Corinth, (Acts 10:43-48) to Saul who became the Apostle Paul. (Acts 9:17-18, 22:16) And finally to 12 men of Ephesus. (Acts 19:1-7) These accounts reveal the foundational elements required of every person, living in the NT, in order to become a born again believer of Jesus Christ. (Heb. 6:1-2)

 

[Wansvic]

I agree that MFW puts the onus on the sinner, but re WB please see what I just said to tablet.

The Word of God is clear on the subject. Those who believe and obey the NT command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus receive remission their sin. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

 

[GWH]

The Word of God is clear on the subject. Those who believe and obey the NT command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus receive remission their sin. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

Acts 2:38 and 22:16 are not God's only or final word about WB. Paul warned Christians to beware of Judaizers, who revert to teaching justification by observing the law (Gal. 4:8-5:12, Phil. 3:1-9), saying "I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ–that comes from God and is by faith”.

Jesus taught that his righteousness (Matt. 5:10&20) surpassed and superseded that of those who obeyed and taught the law (cf. Matt. 12:5-12, 19:3-9, Heb. 7:18-10:1). The law is represented by John the Baptist in Matt. 3:11a, “I baptize you with water [WB] for repentance” [forgiveness of sins indicated in the Torah, cf. Rom. 7:4-8:17], and Spirit baptism (SB) is indicated in Matt. 3:11b, “but after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

However, some people (“Actsers”) focus on events in Acts such as WB and glossolalia rather than on teachings in the epistles about faith/SB being what is essential (“Faithers”). The book of Acts does not teach foundational Christian doctrine but merely records what occurred during the early days of the church era as the revelation of GRFS transitioned from OT beliefs to the NT doctrine that is taught in the epistles, which never command WB or tongues as signs of SB or as essential for salvation. By the last of Paul’s epistles, WB came to be understood as a good but non-essential work or rite, like physical circumcision, and the basis for believing folks are filled with the HS is reflecting God’s love for everyone (Matt. 22:37-40, 1John 4:7-21, John 13:35, Rom. 5:5, Gal. 5:6 & 22, etc.).

Regarding speaking in tongues, the original occurrence at Pentecost (in Acts 2:4-11) was earthly languages given as a sign of reversing Babel for the purpose of evangelism, but by the time of its occurrence in the church at Corinth it had morphed into mere babble, which Paul tried to quash tactfully (1Cor. 14:19), possibly because even pagan religions practiced it. Again, the purpose of the original gift at Pentecost and for a while longer was to fulfill prophecy and ensure the planting of the first Christian church, but that gift apparently ceased after the apostolic era (1Cor. 13:8-13) and was perverted by some into a faux gift of mere babbling, so one should not be myopic and focus only on a problematic proof-text (1Cor. 14:18-20).

 

[Wansvic]

But that would make of us our own savior and Christ not the Savior, because should anyone achieve those things, they, in effect, would obtain salvation by their efforts; and should they not do them, then they would not obtain salvation, thus making Christ into a fait accompli of sorts only carrying out the results of their actions, but Christ alone is THE Savior. To actually be the Savior, He alone must do the saving - every bit of it with nothing remaining outside of it yet to be satisfied by anyone. By that, we know that the only faith that saves was Christ's faith, not ours; the only works that saves were Christ's works, not ours; the only obedience that saves was Christ's obedience, not ours; the only righteousness that saves, was Christ righteousness, not ours.
So, regarding the verses you quoted, while I do not intend to go through each one to give you my perception of their intent or of what they actually represent, I will try to approach it from a higher perspective - with the questions then being: who satisfies them, why do they satisfy them, and how do they satisfy them? I think the verses below provide answers to that. Notice in the New Covenant, that for those He places under it, that God alone assumes full responsibility for completion - and along with/by that, He also gives full forgiveness of sin - with nothing yet remaining to be satisfied - with the New Covenant then being the salvation process itself.
So, while God demands conformance to His spiritual requirements, He had also satisfied those requirements, and by that, instills within us the desire to conform to them, but that from salvation, not prerequisites to salvation. Were it otherwise, it would mean the replacing of the requirements/works of the Old Covenant with different requirements/works of the New Covenant - works which would still have to be satisfied by us but which would be beyond our abilities to do so, and salvation would not be by grace as we are told it is, but instead by works.

[Heb 1:3 KJV]
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[Heb 8:10-13 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

[Heb 10:12, 14, 16-18 KJV]
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; ...
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ...
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

The scriptures you reference do not contradict the truth concerning the NT rebirth. Those who accept God's word concerning the NT rebirth are not making an offering for sin, Jesus alone did that. And, God alone established what a believer must do in order to take hold of what Jesus died to provide. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

No, saying "yes" was meant to convey agreement with Luke 6:46-49, which would have been clearer if I had said:
"Yes, and Christ is the rock/foundation referred to in both Luke 6:46-49 and 1Cor. 3:11."

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine (teaching) of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2

 

[Wansvic]

Acts 2:38 and 22:16 are not God's only or final word about WB. Paul warned Christians to beware of Judaizers, who revert to teaching justification by observing the law (Gal. 4:8-5:12, Phil. 3:1-9), saying "I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ–that comes from God and is by faith”.

Jesus taught that his righteousness (Matt. 5:10&20) surpassed and superseded that of those who obeyed and taught the law (cf. Matt. 12:5-12, 19:3-9, Heb. 7:18-10:1). The law is represented by John the Baptist in Matt. 3:11a, “I baptize you with water [WB] for repentance” [forgiveness of sins indicated in the Torah, cf. Rom. 7:4-8:17], and Spirit baptism (SB) is indicated in Matt. 3:11b, “but after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

However, some people (“Actsers”) focus on events in Acts such as WB and glossolalia rather than on teachings in the epistles about faith/SB being what is essential (“Faithers”). The book of Acts does not teach foundational Christian doctrine but merely records what occurred during the early days of the church era as the revelation of GRFS transitioned from OT beliefs to the NT doctrine that is taught in the epistles, which never command WB or tongues as signs of SB or as essential for salvation. By the last of Paul’s epistles, WB came to be understood as a good but non-essential work or rite, like physical circumcision, and the basis for believing folks are filled with the HS is reflecting God’s love for everyone (Matt. 22:37-40, 1John 4:7-21, John 13:35, Rom. 5:5, Gal. 5:6 & 22, etc.).

Regarding speaking in tongues, the original occurrence at Pentecost (in Acts 2:4-11) was earthly languages given as a sign of reversing Babel for the purpose of evangelism, but by the time of its occurrence in the church at Corinth it had morphed into mere babble, which Paul tried to quash tactfully (1Cor. 14:19), possibly because even pagan religions practiced it. Again, the purpose of the original gift at Pentecost and for a while longer was to fulfill prophecy and ensure the planting of the first Christian church, but that gift apparently ceased after the apostolic era (1Cor. 13:8-13) and was perverted by some into a faux gift of mere babbling, so one should not be myopic and focus only on a problematic proof-text (1Cor. 14:18-20).

The NT water baptism command has nothing to do with the OT law.

Jesus prophesied concerning when the NT water baptism would begin,
And (Jesus) said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46-47)

This happened in Jerusalem just as Jesus said it would.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." Acts 2:36-42

 

[Wansvic]

...
A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 16:31)
...

Please take the time to read this. It's a real eye-opener for some, hopefully it will be for you as well:

"Most of Christendom has decided that water baptism is neither a prerequisite, nor necessary, to salvation. Influenced largely by the Protestant Reformation, people have become convinced that forgiveness of sin by the blood of Christ is achieved at the very moment a person “believes”—by which they mean when a person, in his or her own mind, “accepts” Christ as Lord and Savior. To them, the external act of water baptism is considered to be simply an after-the-fact outward “symbol” or “badge” that “declares” the Christian’s already-secured salvation. One passage used to support this thinking is the account of the conversion of the Roman jailer in Philippi (Acts 16). However, a careful study of the entire episode yields quite a different conclusion.

Paul’s response to the jailer’s question Sirs, what must I do to be saved? was, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household” (vs. 31). What did Paul mean by this statement? If he meant what many within Christendom think he meant, that is, if the jailer already knew who Jesus was, and if Paul was urging him simply to believe (i.e., simply to “accept Christ into his heart as his personal savior”), then we should next expect the text to provide the jailer’s response—something to the effect that the jailer accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, or that he believed on Jesus right then and there and was saved.

However, to the contrary, the text says: “Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him” (vs. 32). Why? Didn’t Paul just do that by telling the jailer to believe? Apparently not! Paul later wrote that “faith comes by hearing…the word of God” (Romans 10:17). So the jailer needed to hear additional information that would enable him to know what it means to believe in Jesus. It follows, then, that the instruction, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” was simply a broad, sweeping statement intended to redirect the jailer... toward the true object of belief—Christ.... But simply telling the jailer (or anyone today) to “believe on Jesus” does not provide sufficient information on how to believe. In other words, there is more to “believing on Jesus” than simply affirming in one’s mind that Jesus is Lord and Savior (a fact readily conceded even by Satan and the demons—Genesis 3:15; Matthew 4:3,6; Luke 22:31; Hebrews 2:14; James 2:19; Revelation 12:4ff.).

It was only in speaking the word of the Lord to the jailer that he could understand who Christ is, what Christianity is about, and the proper response to the preached Word—i.e., what it means to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” Since the jailer could not be saved before Paul spoke the Word of the Lord to him, observe the sequence of events that the text reports immediately after the Word was spoken to him.

(1) The jailer took Paul and Silas “the same hour of the night and washed their stripes” (Acts 16:33). Here is evidence of repentance (e.g., Matthew 3:8). Here is evidence that the jailer was convinced by the information that had been given to him, to the extent that he wanted to make things right. That is repentance—a change of mind resulting in appropriate outward actions (Matthew 21:29; 2 Corinthians 7:10).

(2) The text then states: “And immediately he and all his family were baptized.” Three aspects of this sentence are noteworthy. First, if baptism is unnecessary to salvation, why even mention it with regard to the conversion of the jailer? Why not simply proceed in the narrative to the outcome of conversion—i.e., some indication that he was now saved? If baptism is nonessential, instead of reading, “And immediately he and all his family were baptized,” one would expect the text to read, “And immediately he and all his family accepted Jesus as their personal Savior.” Second, where did the jailer get the idea that he needed to be baptized? It had to have been included in Paul’s “speaking the word of the Lord” to him. But if the jailer could not be saved until Paul “spoke the word of the Lord” to him, and if Paul included in that “word of the Lord” the doctrine of baptism, then it follows that the jailer’s salvation depended in part on baptism. Third, why “immediately”? Many within Christendom wait a week, a month, or longer before baptizing believers. Why was the jailer baptized immediately in the middle of the night? The implication is that baptism is more crucial and more urgent than many today think.

(3) At this point in Luke’s narrative, we are informed that the jailer brought Paul and Silas into his home, and then he set food before them. Next, we are informed that the jailer “rejoiced” (vs. 34). When does the text indicate that the jailer manifested signs of joy and happiness (that naturally follow conversion)—before or after baptism? After baptism! In fact, every time rejoicing is explicitly alluded to in the conversion accounts of Acts, it is always after baptism (e.g., 2:46—“gladness”; 8:39—“rejoicing”).

(4) Everything up to this point leads one to the conclusion that baptism was part and parcel of the jailer’s conversion, and preceded his salvation as the culminating act. But here is the clincher. Look carefully at the phrase in verse 34: “having believed in God.” Here is a clear, explicit indication that the jailer was now a saved believer. In the Greek, the expression “having believed” (pepisteukos) is in the perfect tense. There is no English tense corresponding to the Greek perfect. Consider the following brief explanation by Greek grammarians Dana and Mantey.

The perfect is the tense of complete action. Its basal significance is the progress of an act or state to a point of culmination and the existence of its finished results. That is, it views action as a finished product…. It implies a process, but views that process as having reached its consummation and existing in a finished state (1927, p. 200, emp. added).

Greek scholar Ray Summers offered another helpful explanation of the Greek perfect tense:
t indicates a completed action with a resulting state of being. The primary emphasis is on the resulting state of being. Involved in the Greek perfect are three ideas: an action in progress, its coming to a point of culmination, its existing as a completed result. Thus it implies a process but looks upon the process as having reached a consummation and existing as a completed state (1950, p. 103, italics in orig., emp. added).

In light of the thrust of the Greek perfect tense, Luke was making the point that the jailer went through a process of several actions before it could be stated that he was in possession of a saving faith in God. His initial belief that came as a result of hearing the Word of the Lord preached to him, led to his repentance (as evinced by his attending Paul and Silas’ wounds), and then culminated in his baptism in water—bringing his faith to a completed result. Only at this point could the Greek perfect tense be used to indicate that the jailer now stood in a completed state of having believed. Luke was careful to refrain from labeling the jailer as a “believer” until all of the prerequisites to salvation had been completed, thereby bringing his faith to its finished state. This observation was acknowledged by R.J. Knowling while professor of New Testament Exegesis at King’s College in London: “[T]he word pepisteukos, perfect participle, shows that this fullness of joy was caused by his full profession of belief; it was the joy of the Holy Ghost which followed his baptism” (n.d., 2:353, italics in orig., emp. added).

This understanding of the conversion account of the Philippian jailer is in perfect concord with the other conversion accounts given in Acts (e.g., Acts 2:38; 3:19; 8:12-13,36-39; 9:18; 10:47-48; 16:15; 18:8; 19:5). The New Testament designates water immersion as the point in time at which God cleanses the sin-stained spirit of the penitent believer by the blood of Christ (cf. Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4)." Excerpts from AP Article

 

[GWH]

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine (teaching) of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2

I see that there you sent me a few posts and although I am out on errands and dislike doing long replies via my phone I will do so. I note that Hebrews 6:1-2 refers to understanding plural baptisms as being part of foundational doctrine.

TBC