Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

The naive in this thread can never think beyond the tip of their noses! God who has ordained all ends in eternity also ordained all the secondary causes (means) to those ends. Read the account of Joseph in Genesis some day. Maybe you'll catch on.

Jesus Christ is God in flesh so I will take His direct words and compare them to your flake excuse of a doctrine all day long just to keep seeing you whine like this post I have quoted.

Btw, want some cheese with that whine?

 

[Jackson129]

Are you addressing this to me by mistake or did I miss something?

Re: the "world-kosmos" my read is that it's definitely used to mean different things, but here it means what it sounds like and probably even more than most of us are considering. This phrase "of the world" can legitimately be translated "from the world" which would ultimately have more complete eschatological and cosmic realities that what Christ has done according to God's Plan and Purpose and thus His will and His decision, ultimately removes sin from God's creation - His created order - let alone from just those who believe in Him.

We discuss too small on these merry-go-rounds.

I did ask out of order of your discussion. But I was curious to know if it was the same meaning as John 3-16 since you know about the differnt worlds. Maybe it did remove sin from God's creation in the sence that all you have to do is ask for forgiveness? In essence it gave the elect a way back home and the non elect no excuse. So even though we know it dosent happen if every single person asked for forgiveness then all sin would be forgivin. Kind of like the atonement sacrafice where once a year the high priest went in and did sacrifice so all sins of all Isreal would be blotted out and thus not incurring the wrath of God. Jesus was the atonement sacrifice for all the world. If they just ask. If that makes sence.

 

[Cameron143]

He foreknew there would be believers - more specifically "those (plural - the men) who love Him" Rom8:28 - these (plural) are the whom as I identified.

Specific individuals is another discussion.

Foreknowing there would be believers is WHAT He foreknew. Foreknowing each believer is WHOM He foreknew.

 

[lrs68]

Along with this, God didn't choose Israel because of anything that was true of them. He simply chose to set His affection upon them. And that's still how He chooses...not based on anything that is true of us. He simply sets His affection upon us.

Israel was chosen because God created a plan for Salvation that required a homestead and a people. The people themselves were only a means to birth the eventual Messiah. But the people that birthed the Messiah had to be unique in their ways from beliefs to the ordinances they abided by. They were only set apart because God Himself is set apart from everything else. So it actually comes down to God created a Plan and the way He designed that plan required certain standards. Nothing was really ever about the people or land it was 100% about God was coming as a man and His requirements that He wanted included everything we know about the Ancient Hebrew People.

 

[Cameron143]

This is highly interpretive and close to the point of brief discussion I was having with @Genez re: Rom9-10. See post #5,485.

In Rom9 because Paul continues after speaking of Jacob's election which was not based on human will or exertion/effort per Rom9:16 in context, into discussion re: the Remnant (all Israel is not Israel) and then into the Gospel and the nations, this discussion puts us back into one about Faith, human volition, grace, and we're right back to the controversies re: Calvinistic, Arminian, Free Grace, and others over these merry-go-round issues.

Was Israel not chosen by grace?
It distinguishes how God chooses. He does so sovereignly. It is not influenced by anything other than His will.
Another example: Saul and David. Saul was the people's choice. A man after the people's heart. David was God's choice. A man after God's heart.

 

[Cameron143]

Israel was chosen because God created a plan for Salvation that required a homestead and a people. The people themselves were only a means to birth the eventual Messiah. But the people that birthed the Messiah had to be unique in their ways from beliefs to the ordinances they abided by. They were only set apart because God Himself is set apart from everything else. So it actually comes down to God created a Plan and the way He designed that plan required certain standards. Nothing was really ever about the people or land it was 100% about God was coming as a man and His requirements that He wanted included everything we know about the Ancient Hebrew People.

Could God have done this through any nation?

 

[Cameron143]

I'd join @HeIsHere and ask are you sure, and now are you sure that's all Deut7 says, especially about love? I'd Also ask if you think there is any parallelism going on in that verse.

I'll give you the same advice. Simply read the passage.

 

[Cameron143]

I interpret in light of Scripture teaching that God loves all people and provides everyone an opportunity to be saved from hell,
which you can ignore as you prefer and believe God does NOT love everyone but rather He shows favoritism by electing only a few
to escape damnation, but it doesn't change the truth. "Whom" = "Those", as in "Those/Whom God foreknew [would choose
to accept Christ] He also predestined [planned from the beginning] to be conformed to the image of His Son [to become loving]...".

I don't believe you understand what it means that God is no respecter of persons. I also don't believe God is a respecter of persons or that only a few are chosen.

 

[lrs68]

Could God have done this through any nation?

Because of the structure of the Hebrew Language + what we now understand in the terms of meaning with examples like Melchizedek [(king of Salem {Jerusalem})], the spiritual meaning of Israel and Judah and actually all of the 12 Tribes including Joseph's sons it was never about any people. This is what God created. There's meaning in both physical and spiritual which also exists in Heavenly terminology. So it is more about the land and beliefs.

When we think about Abraham we need to go back well beyond Noah. We need to go back to Enoch. Enoch was a selfish human being that we see decided one day to serve God and learn more about God. Then God took him. But it's Enoch's progeny that became the Hebrew People.

 

[GWH]

I don't believe you understand what it means that God is no respecter of persons. I also don't believe God is a respecter of persons or that only a few are chosen.

My understanding of God not showing favoritism is based on:

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

TOP #22: For Jews, obeying the Mosaic Law will serve as the basis of divine judgment. [Rom. 2:9-13&16] Verse 11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

TOP #178: Masters or bosses should treat their slaves or employees the way Christ would. [Eph. 6:9, Col. 4:1] Christ/God is the Master of both without favoring either.

TOP #221: God is just. [2Thes. 1:6, Heb. 6:10] The second verse says that God is not unjust, EPH 6:9 defines justness as not showing favoritism and RM 3:25-26 says that God demonstrates his justice.

What percentage of humanity do you believe God loves/elects?

 

[HeIsHere]

I'll give you the same advice. Simply read the passage.

It is national selection, it is absolutely and completely ridiculous to think each of those individuals were saved by force, oops sorry faith birthed in them.
Once again going outside of the context.

It is not disputed that God chose national Israel as His people. This is not the same as choosing who will or won’t believe. Not even all of his chosen Israel believed


NEXT!

 

[HeIsHere]

Was Israel not chosen by grace?
It distinguishes how God chooses. He does so sovereignly. It is not influenced by anything other than His will.
Another example: Saul and David. Saul was the people's choice. A man after the people's heart. David was God's choice. A man after God's heart.

PLEASE NOTE: Election to service should NEVER be conflated with receiving the gift of eternal life by exercising personal faith.

 

[HeIsHere]

I'd join @HeIsHere and ask are you sure, and now are you sure that's all Deut7 says, especially about love? I'd Also ask if you think there is any parallelism going on in that verse.

You will notice one tactic employed is putting forth their next proof text and when that is repudiated as a proof text for unconditional election the process always starts all over again.

The tactic is to keep the potential convert on the defensive and wear them down.
Just another friendly reminder.

 

[studier]

I did ask out of order of your discussion. But I was curious to know if it was the same meaning as John 3-16 since you know about the differnt worlds. Maybe it did remove sin from God's creation in the sence that all you have to do is ask for forgiveness? In essence it gave the elect a way back home and the non elect no excuse. So even though we know it dosent happen if every single person asked for forgiveness then all sin would be forgivin. Kind of like the atonement sacrafice where once a year the high priest went in and did sacrifice so all sins of all Isreal would be blotted out and thus not incurring the wrath of God. Jesus was the atonement sacrifice for all the world. If they just ask. If that makes sence.

Thanks for clarifying.

"world" needs to be clarified in context whenever we see it. Unfortunately, this ambiguity provides for arguments.

In John3:16 I see it as at minimum the entire world, all of its inhabitants as a set, and those who believe as the subset. As I previously stated, I also see reason to extend it into the entire heavens and earth. God through Christ is reconciling all things in heaven and on earth Col1:20. Sin has affected the creation and Christ who has authority over all of creation is ridding it of sin.

I do think your sin offering for the nation is representative of an offering for an entirety. And based upon what I just said that entirety that Christ has and is affecting should get more of our attention than these discussions of the world theoretically being some select few.

What Christ has done and is doing is universal and cosmic in scale. Rather than try to limit John3:16 I go the other way with it.

In simple context I see no reason to not see it at least being vast enough for "every [man]" per both John3:15-16 to have been provided for and conditioned on believing.

 

[Cameron143]

Because of the structure of the Hebrew Language + what we now understand in the terms of meaning with examples like Melchizedek [(king of Salem {Jerusalem})], the spiritual meaning of Israel and Judah and actually all of the 12 Tribes including Joseph's sons it was never about any people. This is what God created. There's meaning in both physical and spiritual which also exists in Heavenly terminology. So it is more about the land and beliefs.

When we think about Abraham we need to go back well beyond Noah. We need to go back to Enoch. Enoch was a selfish human being that we see decided one day to serve God and learn more about God. Then God took him. But it's Enoch's progeny that became the Hebrew People.

Yes or no?

 

[Cameron143]

My understanding of God not showing favoritism is based on:

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

TOP #22: For Jews, obeying the Mosaic Law will serve as the basis of divine judgment. [Rom. 2:9-13&16] Verse 11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

TOP #178: Masters or bosses should treat their slaves or employees the way Christ would. [Eph. 6:9, Col. 4:1] Christ/God is the Master of both without favoring either.

TOP #221: God is just. [2Thes. 1:6, Heb. 6:10] The second verse says that God is not unjust, EPH 6:9 defines justness as not showing favoritism and RM 3:25-26 says that God demonstrates his justice.

What percentage of humanity do you believe God loves/elects?

A number that no man can number.

 

[Magenta]

it is absolutely and completely ridiculous to think each of those individuals were saved by force, oops sorry faith birthed in them.

And there it is. God gifting us with faith is forcing people according to you. Hence why you
applaud God portrayed as an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their will.
In your theology He is so unfair after all. In your theology you birth faith in yourself.
Your incurably wicked heart brings forth the good fruit of faith.

 

[Cameron143]

It is national selection, it is absolutely and completely ridiculous to think each of those individuals were saved by force, oops sorry faith birthed in them.
Once again going outside of the context.

It is not disputed that God chose national Israel as His people. This is not the same as choosing who will or won’t believe. Not even all of his chosen Israel believed


NEXT!

It establishes a pattern for how God chooses...not of the will of men, but of the will of God.

 

[Cameron143]

PLEASE NOTE: Election to service should NEVER be conflated with receiving the gift of eternal life by exercising personal faith.

We weren't elected to service. We were ordained to good works...Ephesians 2:10. Election deals with people.

 

[HeIsHere]

It establishes a pattern for how God chooses...not of the will of men, but of the will of God.

It establishes a pattern for how He chooses those who a will serve Him for His purpose, not the act of faith in receiving eternal life.

And the phrase "not by the will of men" was completely dealt with in a past post by several of us and absolutely does not support Unconditional Election.
I always so enjoy how you try to circle back, great strategy there Cameron!!