Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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Thank you Jackson. I was looking for another post when I found this one. Do you believe that a person without the fear of God- which is the beginning of wisdom- has any desire to repent of his rebellion toward God? Do you think that a person who rejects anything of a religious construct even believes that they are a sinner in need of repenting, and forgiveness from God? Oh yes, Jesus said that a bad tree cannot bring forth good... and the unregenerated person has an incurably wicked heart, and it is with the heart that one believes... so how can they bring forth the good fruit of faith with that uncircumcised heart?
I heard all walks and kinds tell of why they came to God. I got scared into it. Some people see a Bible sitting on a table and pick it up. Some people are born into a religious family and it just happened easy for them. I can't speak of the inner motives of man and what did or didnt bring him to his knees.
The same as the demons
James 2:19
New International Version
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
Takes more than just belief in God. It takes accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.
People don't go to Hell and all of sudden say why am I here? Who is this God?
All are without excuse.
Weak sauce. A simple reading of Proverbs 16 will debunk that interpretation.
Let alone the entire Bible where God uses wicked men like the babylonians to judge Israel for their wickedness. That does happen. The difference is: You believe God is the reason this happens, I believe God doesnt want men to be wicked.
I know you also claim God doesnt, but that just goes back to the schizophrenic two wills of God theory.
How do you define depravity?
I'm not following. The anti-freewill crowd says that human nature is totally morally corrupt but you just admitted that human can adhere and choose to act morally.
That is not by nature. We are not absent minded like the animals. We was created in God's image.
We are not even to the point of doing God's will that is not the point here. The point being that if
1. God is the lawgiver of morality
2. You see unbelievers making choices between what is moral and immoral (we see it everyday).
Therefore,
3. Totally depraved is not evident of the current human condition. But instead we see God at work within His creation to combat evil even in the lost.
Pleasing God is a whole different step. I mean sure, God is pleased when His morality is followed but only faith in Christ saves and sets people free to overcome sin.
The total part of total depravity simply means entire. That is, in the fall, every aspect of man was corrupted, and not that every facet of man was utterly corrupted.
You are the one who introduced Romans 4:14-16. It says those being considered act BY NATURE. So I used the example of a lion to demonstrate that by nature is not volitional. This doesn't rule out choice. A lion can eat a gazelle or a water buffalo, but it's going to eat meat, and not grass. Being able to make choices within one's nature is not intentional volition. A person making a choice to not murder can be done without an individual meaning to do the will of God. However, attempting to do the will of God by not committing murder is a volitional act. It can only be done if a new nature exists in an individual.
So you at least speak of will and choice. Then let's move into a new nature that only comes after the indwelling of the Spirit. What must come before is the choice to accept Christ.
There are zero examples of being reborn happening before initial belief and acceptance. It always came after one accepted Christ.
If it is as you suggest, you have someone acting from a fallen nature acting in faith.
They were "completely depraved", in the quantitative sense, i.e. in all four faculties of their heart. The only reason is that man is not "completely depraved" in the qualitative sense is because God, through both natural and supernatural means, restrains evil in this world. Plus we should not forget that "leaven" is often used as a metaphor for sin. It only takes a little leaven to leaven the whole lump (1Cor 5:6).
No, it could not! See Rom 9:11.
And why would you think God "arbitrarely" [sic] does anything? Read Rom 9:11again that talks of God's purpose or intention behind election.
But I bet you won't be "impressed" by these truths, will you?
And why don't you give us your "simple-[minded] reading of Prov 16? And while you're out, tackle Prov 21:1, as well.
Also, ponder this: Since God is omniscient, why did He cast Lucifer and his rebellious followers to earth after they sinned, knowing full well the malicious mischief the evil one would cause in this world? Was God's cosmic crystal ball not working too swell? Or maybe God actually had a much bigger purpose in mind that small, carnal and especially unregenerate minds cannot grasp?
I will awnser better. I honestly dont know what other people do or dont think. I was a completely disgusting human being and yet I was aware of God and that he might have been a possibility. I just didnt care and did what I wanted. There were a few times in my life I knew that what happened was a miracle and that I thought God was involved. I also hated authority. So I had chances before I was saved even thought about it a time or two. When I look back on it I can say I was in a state of rebellion. I know every single person in America walking around as an adult and teenager has heard of God. The thought has crossed thier mind. Just like it did me a few times. Probably even thought about it a few times like I did. Chose to say the heck with that just like I did a few times. But as far as to what they think inside thier minds I cannot speak to that. Only God can.
This is true because God pours out His grace before man shows any inclination toward Him but if that grace did not exist, we all would end up in the lake of fire never knowing why any of us were there. God has never forsaken us, only one man has known the full weight of what it means to be forsaken while He carried our sin in His body.
John 1:12 makes the order of things very clear. The Light is revealed, we take hold by believing on His name, the power to be born again is given.
John 1:12
But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God;
How else does one come to belief? You're not born a believer from the womb.
Everyone got there before the indwelling of the Spirit. Do you have any examples of the indwelling coming before belief?What is your definition so we know what you are talking about when you say man is totally depraved?