Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

That's because God works in all manner of different ways. Plus salvation itself is a process of sanctification which in turn leads to obedience to the truth. I, too, experienced something very similar with my salvation experience but it wasn't quite as long a period as yours -- a couple of years or so from when I actually responded positively to His drawing grace.

Yes, I agree... all kinds of different ways! Too many here seem to have a cookie-cutter approach.

And they use that same cookie cutter to slice and dice the Scriptures.

 

[Magenta]

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

 

[Rufus]

the person is always free to resist. When a rescue swimmer goes after a person and I am sure a fireman, If the person resists. it can actually cause harm and or death too the rescuer.

Jesus also in john 3 shows he wants us to ask also..


Fight it my friend, Fight it.

respond to the examples. don't try to mock them

Your examples are absurd because they don't square with reality as we all know it. On 9/11 when the twin towers were burning, did all the brave first responders get on their huge foghorns to get a show of hands from all the trapped victims inside the towering inferno? Again, is that what the Good Samaritan did when he rescued the half-dead man? Or when Jesus cured the blind man from birth in Jn 9? Or when God rescued the helpless Israelites from Pharaoh's hand?

 

[Rufus]

Yes, I agree... all kinds of different ways! Too many here seem to have a cookie-cutter approach.

And they use that same cookie cutter to slice and dice the Scriptures.

Yes! The have created a god in their own image and stuffed him neatly and tidily inside their little box.

 

[Magenta]

FTFY since God alone deserves all the credit for his elect's faith. Man's will does
not put us in Christ Jesus even though you boast that it does (1Cor 1:30-31)

He chose us. Scripture says explicitly it is not us who chose first.

From Ephesians 1 verses 4-6 ~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

 

[Magenta]

From Ephesians 1 According to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, God has made known to us the mystery of His will, which He purposed in Christ before the foundation of the world. In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him Who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory. .

 

[fredoheaven]

That's because God works in all manner of different ways. Plus salvation itself is a process of sanctification which in turn leads to obedience to the truth. I, too, experienced something very similar with my salvation experience but it wasn't quite as long a period as yours -- a couple of years or so from when I actually responded positively to His drawing grace.

Process salvation and not a one time experience which goes to a need of perseverance. Is this not a work based relationship. Is the Saviour, a no Saviour at all? Thanks

 

[Magenta]

Process salvation and not a one time experience which goes to a need of perseverance.
Is this not a work based relationship. Is the Saviour, a no Saviour at all? Thanks

I do not understand how coming to believe is seen as works based when it is God drawing us
with lovingkindness to engender repentance in us which is also what Scripture says. But then
we also have people who claim God revealing Himself is unnecessary even though we come to
know God through spiritual revelation. And yes, coming to believe was a process for me.

 

[GWH]

No sorry I wasn't clear. I meant what is a FWer but now I get it. Free Willers.

I have repented of that. Salvation is of the Lord

To be completely clear you should realize that the issue is whether or not a person is free to seek God's salvation,
so the word "moral" should be inserted before "free will" to indicate that--if "that" is what you repented of.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So, God is indebted to save sinners or provide opportunities for their salvation? On what judicial basis did God incur this debt, which of course would contradict Rom 11?

Jesus said God loved the world. did he lie?

And ignorance of law applies with equal force to ignorance of grace since every man intuitively knows he's a sinner (a morally imperfect human being). In fact, that make him even more culpable to judgment than someone ignorant of a law because he doesn't know what the law says or that a certain law even exists to cover his particular situation.

I do not need to know the law to repent and get saved.

I do need to know Gods provision to repent and be saved

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Acts 16:31 KJV — And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

How is believing in Christ become a work? Is not your choice of repenting of not responding to the gospel is a determining factor whether one is saved or unsaved?
Anyway, this is your right. Thanks

I will never understand this, why are they so afraid?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your examples are absurd because they don't square with reality as we all know it.

Dude I was in the US coast Guard. I have been a rescue swimmer, and I have spoken with firemen who have gone in.

so I am using reality as an example

stop thinking you have it all figured out

On 9/11 when the twin towers were burning, did all the brave first responders get on their huge foghorns to get a show of hands from all the trapped victims inside the towering inferno? Again, is that what the Good Samaritan did when he rescued the half-dead man? Or when Jesus cured the blind man from birth in Jn 9? Or when God rescued the helpless Israelites from Pharaoh's hand?

They went to find them,, when they found them.. if the person resisted or said no.. then they would not have been rescued.

Your issue is you do not understand,, some people do not think they need saved (see the pharisees)

some people think they do not need to be saved (see the licentious)

others do not want to be saved (see the athiest)

some think they can save themselves (see the pharisees or religious perosn tryign to work their way to heaven)

in all these cases, when the rescuer comes. They will resist the rescuer.

its not that the rescuer cannot save them, he can

Its not the rescuer does not want to. He does

Its that he will not force people who do not want to be saved, to recieve his help


that is why they see and do not believe nor ask God to rescue them, because they do not see their situation or condition.

It does not mean God did not show it to them. Jesus spoke to them outright
as John said, He came into his own, and his own received him not

where they prevented from seeing him

or did they see, but not believe. because of pride.

 

[fredoheaven]

I do not understand how coming to believe is seen as works based when it is God drawing us
with lovingkindness to engender repentance in us which is also what Scripture says. But then
we also have people who claim God revealing Himself is unnecessary even though we come to
know God through spiritual revelation. And yes, coming to believe was a process for me.

Process salvation. Step 1. God draws the dead corpse, the natural man who cannot receive the things of God into such belief. So after such belief, what comes next?
Step 2? Which is?

Thanks

 

[Magenta]

Process salvation. Step 1. God draws the dead corpse, the natural man who cannot receive the things of God into such belief. So after such belief, what comes next?
Step 2? Which is?

Thanks

You have step one wrong. You have belief at the front end. You are putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Magenta]

the natural man who cannot receive the things of God

At least you got this part ^ right.

The gospel is foolishness to the natural man, since he can neither accept nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. It is impossible for his incurably wicked heart to grow the seed of God’s Word into the good fruit of faith while he is captive to the will of the devil. Along with the rest of the world who does not know God, he is blinded to the truth and under the power and influence of Satan, rendered incapable of submitting to or obeying God, with Whom he is inherently hostile toward in his mind, for he craves what is contrary to the Spirit. He suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, refusing to come into the light because he is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, and his deeds are evil.

 

[Magenta]

From what I can gather they are saying your doctrine is portraying God as not fair. Unless I missed a post which is possible.

I am at work on a different device which opens up a different set of pages than at home... I just saw that one of these pages
shows that since at least last November I have been addressing the claim of, "God is not fair." The bolded text is a link..

 

[studier]

Your argument assumes that foreknowledge is nothing more than prescience, which it is not! It is divine prerogative. Consider Jacob and Esau. God elected one for salvation and the other for reprobation without any regard whatsoever for their behavior in life.

Your statement assumes that God elected Jacob for salvation.

Also see Act 2:22-23 and notice the logical order of the words in the phrase "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God". God's purpose or plan is the basis for his [fore]knowledge, since God does not acquire knowledge as we do. If God has to receive the counsel of men through cosmic crystal ball gazing, He would not be omniscient. Rather, the Potter would be just like his clay pots since we mortals have to acquire knowledge.

FWIW, as I understand you, I agree that Acts2:23 does place an order here re: the crucifixion. Using the ESV which I think you copied from: God's definite plan > God foreknows > Jesus was delivered up. So, God foreknew Jesus' crucifixion because He made a set decision it would take place.

It's interesting that the ESV chose "according to" because it is a bit cautious in what's said here. It's basically saying that the crucifixion happened in relation/reference to God's plan > foreknowledge vs. by (also valid translation) His plan > foreknowledge, which seems to be making better room for men's volitional actions to crucify vs. being the cause for them to crucify Jesus.

 

[Magenta]

Your statement assumes that God elected Jacob for salvation.

Too funny.

 

[sawdust]

I ask you. are you sinless?

And I answered in the post you rudely refused to read.

Are you being serious. or just mocking?



lol. And you will not as long as you keep playing those games

before he was born = before he was born again, before he was saved. etc etc

again, are you sinless??

I'm not playing any games.

If you meant before he was born spiritually, how hard would it have been for you to say "born again" instead of just saying "before he was born"?

There is only one way I am going to read the latter statement and that is meaning his physical birth.

And again, I will not repeat the answer that you so rudely refused to read in the first place.

Then I have no idea why you would even think of interpreting this passage the way you do

the ONLY reason to interpret that way is to claim before you were saved, you struggled. After you no longer struggle. hence you have become sinless) Your literally the only person I have met who interpret this passage as you do and does not claim you are sinless)

There's a first time for everything.

Not sinless, imbued with the power of God to overcome.

Why you think you have to be saved in order to know the struggle, I don't get? Even criminals know they do wrong which is why they hide their crimes. The difference is, usually, they love unrighteousness. Paul could read the Law, he saw it was right and he loved righteousness. It's why he was so zealous for the Law. It was his love for doing what is right, being in conflict with the sin nature in his flesh that is anti-Spirit, that set up a constant and hopeless battle within him.

It's obvious we disagree. I don't get why you think we must be spiritually alive in order to recognise sin and righteousness when the Spirit is in the world convincing people of these very things.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

grace and peace

 

[sawdust]

As is often the case in our discussions, I don't feel you are understanding what I'm saying. I'm sure you feel the same way. Thanks for the discussion. Grace and peace.

Personally I think it is not a lack of understanding but rather we simply see things differently and they just don't align no matter how hard we try.

I take comfort in that I always enjoying my discussions with you as it means I have to think. I hope you can take the same comfort.

grace and peace