Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

I believe everyone has faith (noun) and faith (noun) results in believing (verb). Just as everyone has intellect (noun) which results in thinking (verb).

When truth is revealed to "whosoever" and "whosoever" believes that truth, God then works within "whosoever" to increase faith concerning that truth.

Even unbelievers believe some of God's truth (example: most people believe that murder is wrong ... same with stealing ... lying ... etc., etc.). So an unbeliever may believe truth recorded in Scripture, and also remain without eternal life.

imo ... the issue is not "do you have faith" ... the issue is "in Whom do you place your faith".

If we place our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ... in God and His promises ... we receive the blessings He has promised.

If we place our faith in anything or anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ ... we receive the consequence of rejecting Him.

I also believe faith is reliable. Faith is more reliable than what we are able to discern with our five senses, our intellect, our emotions.

We observe the glory of God in His creation. That draws us to Him and causes us to want to know Him more. We seek Him out and He reveals Himself to those who seek Him.

Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Also, He has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. That is what God has chosen. We observe His glory in creation and we are interested and want to know more about the Creator. We seek Him. Inevitably God will send someone across the path of those who are hungering and thirsting after righteousness ... someone who will speak the truth of the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

just some thoughts ... apologies if somewhat rambling ...
.

I appreciate the "just some thoughts" and thought they were cohesive.

If I were to summarize re: faith vs. belief, it seems you see them as synonymous and that the important issue (in regard to God) is the content - the object - of faith/belief (per your statement I highlighted and the next 2 statements).

Correct?

I also like what you said about the unbeliever.

 

[sawdust]

Yes. But there was no struggle with the spirit. because he did not have the spirit yet.

See this is why you don't make any sense. You say he is talking about his present (saved) state while at the same time saying he has no spirit. Not possible. It's why Jesus said you cannot see the Kingdom of God without being born from above. Paul is talking from his present saved state but not about his present saved state. Do you honestly believe the Lord would have him writing scripture (Rom.7 is scripture) if he was in the midst of this tumultuous mindset?

lol.. Your souls is born again, your soul could not do good before you were saved, before ther spirit changed it.

The Spirit doesn't give you a new soul, He gives you a spirit. Spirit gives birth to spirit, not soul. Jn.3:6 We are souls, not spirits. The function of our soul is awareness, self-consciousness, mind, will, emotion and conscience. It is where we get our personalities from and build our character. It is created in the image and likeness of God. Our spirits are said be given or born, never created. God creates our soul. We are to be transformed in our mind which, is what makes them new. There would be no need for transformation if it was brand new and born of God and not created as a semi self-determining individual.

Of course your soul could do no good, it's exactly what Paul is saying and what I said. No matter how hard you try, even if you do manage to do some good like feed the poor, it is worthless because it is done outside of faith. No-one can please God apart from faith.

Again, the fact paul used the last sentence to show how he would serve one law this way and another law another way. Proves he was speaking of a battle he was going through.

Paul isn't saying this is how he is going to serve. He is simply making a statement of reality. If you follow God, you serve God. If you follow your flesh, you serve sin. The beauty is, in salvation, we have been set free from the law that governs the latter. Rom.8:2 There no longer needs to be this struggle. That's why Paul is so delighted in Rom.7:25 there is salvation from this bondage to sin. If you say you are saved and are still bound to the Rom.7 predicament, you are doing something wrong or someone is teaching you wrong.

am I to assume to do not go through this struggle yourself?

You assume correctly. Like Paul, I have learnt to be content in any and all circumstances. The days of Romans 7 struggle is gone for even if I do sin now, I know exactly how to handle it and move on with my life in the Lord. There is no struggle when one walks according to the Spirit, certainly not the desperate one found in Rom.7 where you find yourself torn in two. If there were, there would be no rest as Jesus spoke in Matt.11:28

Phil.4:11-12
11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.

If you are still struggling as per Romans 7 in your Christian walk and you have walked a long time with the Lord? I will pray for you. (we still need praying hands emoji )

 

[sawdust]

Its not hard to see if you could prove it

But the text does not insinuate this at all

As far as I'm concerned it does more than insinuate because it clearly portrays the state of being bound to the flesh from which we need saving, hence the cry at the end "who will save me". There is a solution to this hopelessness, The Lord Jesus Christ.

But if you look at a child of Gods life as a whole. you see romans 7.

I don't know what to say to that. It makes me so sad if that is your life in Christ. If you are a new Christian, I would understand you might think that way, but if you are still in the hopelessness of Romans 7? Like I said, I don't know what more to tell you except to say go and learn what Romans 8 means.

Paul in his late stage struggled.

Paul learnt to be content as I noted in the other post. Phil.4:11-12 Don't know where you think he is still having a wrestling match with his sin nature. Do you have scripture?

Like I said, should I assume you do not?

are you sinless?

Not sinless, just sin less and when I do sin, I know what to do with it. No need to struggle with my sin nature any more, I know the power of the Lord to overcome. Thanks to be to God in Christ.

 

[sawdust]

yeah ... good point ... I actually thought about that at the time ... which then led me to James 1:12-15 ... I thought I'd just leave off going into that ... believe me, sawdust, I can go on and on and on (which I'm sure everyone who has posted in this thread has noticed!!!)
.

LOL I can relate. There is so much depth, and height and breadth to the Lord's word it is hard to know when enough is said.

 

[Magenta]

As far as I'm concerned it does more than insinuate because it clearly portrays the state of being bound to the flesh from which
we need saving, hence the cry at the end "who will save me". There is a solution to this hopelessness, The Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen.

 

[Rufus]

Thank you. That is one question off my list. I now understand what the warning passages are there for. My reasoning for asking was what I saw in John 6, how all those who are given to the Son actually come. So it is an invitation with a guarantee that they will come and will be raised up on the last day. It is hard to reconcile that with apostasy, but I remained in the belief that genuine believers can fall because of passages like Hebrews 10:26-29 and Hebrews 6:4-6 and others.

The brick wall I kept running into was if these people that are given are guaranteed to come and be raised and are said to never perish, how could they be unborn again since you are born of incorruptible seed. I explained this by saying they can be spit out of Jesus' mouth (This is a verse in Revelation) but it still contradicts the never perish and guarantee.

Very enlightning this. I am on your side. Could you comment on Ezekiel 22:30 which says this:
"I searched for a man among them to repair the wall and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, so that I should not destroy it. But I found no one."

Couldn't God have just regenerated someone to stand the gap He wanted to be filled? Or is this a case of God using anthropomorphisms. What do you believe, sir?

I will look into some of the material to study it further. God is calling me to do it.

There's always tension between God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility. Hence, we will never understand fully exactly what happens when God's will intercepts with man's. But we do know from scripture that when they do intersect man's will is always in sync (compatible) with God's. Man always willingly complies with God's will. We see this in Gen 20 with Abimelech when God protected Sarah from this pagan king; we see it with Joseph and his wicked brothers who did evil against him which was God's will; we see it with Pharaoh when God hardened his heart so that God would be glorified; we see this ultimately with Jesus when both the Gentiles and Jews conspired together to murder him, which was all according to God's plan (Acts 4), etc.

Re Ezek 22:30, Yes God could have raised up someone to stand in the gap but he didn't. Quite possibly He didn't because there wasn't even one righteous man in Jerusalem. What I see happening in this passage is two things: God was speaking rhetorically. He was alluding back to the time these Jews' ancestors at Mt. Horeb created the golden calf and worshiped it, which angered God so much that he threatened to destroy the entire nation and start from scratch again with Moses. But Moses (a type of Christ) offered to "stand in the gap" between God's fierce anger and the objects of his anger (Ex 32:10-14; Ps 106:23). Of course, God refused and wound up punishing a large number of Israelites anyway.

The other thing I see is that God could have also been looking to the future when the Son of Man would one day come to this earth to "stand in the gap" between his Father and his Father's elect. While no one was able to redeem the Jerusalem here below, the Son of Man successfully redeemed the Jerusalem above. So...when the day comes that this actually comes to past at the Parousia, we will all be filled with praise, thanksgiving and worship for the Man who sits at the right hand of His father since He stood in the gap between the Father and the New Jerusalem (which is actually Christ's Church).

I believe God rejected Moses' brave offer because the prophet was not qualified to offer himself as a "redeemer". As pious and holy as Moses was, he was still a sinner and the price of ransom is exceedingly high! Consider this passage:

Ps 49:7-9
7 No man can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for him —
8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough —
9 that he should live on forever
and not see decay.
NIV

Hope this helps...

 

[sawdust]

It is hard to escape these conclusions which must be drawn from their claims, and quite frankly they make no sense

It is hard for you to escape the conclusions you draw that make no sense to you.

There has been more than enough said to see those who disagree with you do believe faith is a gift and that none is good but God. You would be wise not to accuse others of being heretics lest it come back on your own head.

 

[Rufus]

What about places the gospel didn't go, and people who never heard the gospel?

Or the millions of infant, babies, children who die before ever coming to the knowledge of good and evil?

 

[Rufus]

“I agree. God moved first”

“Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the world.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭

“and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭11:26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

One would reasonably and logically think that since FWers claim that the Son died for all men w/o exception that Christ would have commissioned his disciples to make disciples of all men w/o exception.

 

[Rufus]

so God put some above others?

what makes you so special?

and what makes them so unworthy. why are you better than them?

The only One who is above "others" (as in ALL mankind ) is the Savior. He is the one who made this vile, unworthy sinner "so special" by his birth, life, death, burial and resurrection. The Father gave me to the Son and effectually drew me to Him just as John 6 teaches. I did not find the Son. The Son found me!

My boasting is in the Cross of Christ; for He made me worthy. IOW, I am no more worthy, in and of myself, of God's great salvation than the sinners elected unto reprobation. Read Romans 9 some day.

 

[sawdust]

This advances the discussion re: belief vs. faith that I earlier flagged @sawdust @HeIsHere @cv5 @Hakawaka about. IMO it would be a good discussion to continue.

First, a question due to the way these threads go: What theological tradition do you hold to, if any? Is it Reformed?

Next, a few comments and questions:

1. In Eph2:8 there is substantial debate re: "faith" being part of the gift. Based upon the grammar, many do not interpret faith being the gift, but the gift being the entire phrase paraphrased, "salvation by grace through faith." Your thoughts?
2. Under pisteuō you're including this "God's inbirthing of faith" concept apart from really proving it. In your description you seem to be saying since the second use of pisteuō is translated as "believe" it means "used of persuading oneself (= human believing)" - so people are persuading themselves about God's existence and being a rewarder? Is this what you're saying?

A few questions to others (and please correct me if I've misunderstood):

1. @sawdust you seem to be saying, as does the above, that belief and faith are not the same. Can you elaborate?
2. @HeIsHere I think you said pistis is belief/faith, so they are the same. Correct?
3. @cv5 any thoughts?
4. @Hakawaka any thoughts or were you mainly bringing up and supporting synergism?
5. Anybody else?

I basically agree with what @Roughsoul1991 said in post#4176, notably his conclusion.

I'm a practical person. God says believe in His Son so I take Him at His word and do what He tells me. If I can't do it (believe), then why is God telling me to do something I can't do? Makes no sense. Is my believing faith? I do not believe so. Faith is the word of God alive and working in us (a gift from God Eph.2:8 ), my believing is an act of my own will based on the evidence presented. This is why I say there can be no (saving) faith apart from God coming to us in grace and truth. It requires His power and light to break through the darkness in order for us to make that volitional choice. Whether one is conscious of making a choice or not, is irrelevant as the choice to believe the truth or not is before us. No-one is born loving darkness, but apart from grace and truth, darkness is all we have from which to learn. Thanks be to God though, He has never left us with the darkness alone. Why do some choose the light and another the darkness, even when presented with the same evidence? Some prefer darkness, some prefer light. Ultimately it's a mystery. Whether we will ever know the actual cause of that difference, I have no idea. Maybe in the eternal state the Lord can teach us but frankly, I don't think we will care by then.

Faith (a gift from God), established by grace (the power of God to see His will done), is found in the soul who makes a volitional choice to agree with the truth presented (believer). In this way we are saved by grace (the will and power of God), though faith (the word in us).

Is that enough elaboration?

 

[HeIsHere]

So cool how you never answer the question.

I answered multiple times, you just did not like the answer, and not just me many others.
Now you are not cool!

 

[Rufus]

I basically agree with what @Roughsoul1991 said in post#4176, notably his conclusion.

I'm a practical person. God says believe in His Son so I take Him at His word and do what He tells me. If I can't do it (believe), then why is God telling me to do something I can't do? Makes no sense. Is my believing faith? I do not believe so. Faith is the word of God alive and working in us (a gift from God Eph.2:8 ), my believing is an act of my own will based on the evidence presented. This is why I say there can be no (saving) faith apart from God coming to us in grace and truth. It requires His power and light to break through the darkness in order for us to make that volitional choice. Whether one is conscious of making a choice or not, is irrelevant as the choice to believe the truth or not is before us. No-one is born loving darkness, but apart from grace and truth, darkness is all we have from which to learn. Thanks be to God though, He has never left us with the darkness alone. Why do some choose the light and another the darkness, even when presented with the same evidence? Some prefer darkness, some prefer light. Ultimately it's a mystery. Whether we will ever know the actual cause of that difference, I have no idea. Maybe in the eternal state the Lord can teach us but frankly, I don't think we will care by then.

Faith (a gift from God), established by grace (the power of God to see His will done), is found in the soul who makes a volitional choice to agree with the truth presented (believer). In this way we are saved by grace (the will and power of God), though faith (the word in us).

Is that enough elaboration?

The transitive verb "faith" is synonymous with belief. And the noun "faith" has a few definitions that uses the term "belief". It appears you're trying to create a false dichotomy between faith and belief.

And on on what side does "trust" fall on: faith, belief or both?

 

[Magenta]

Just repeating a good statement.

It was a logical fallacy. You have a penchant for those.

 

[HeIsHere]

I would say that salvation here is the charism and not faith. Faith is best described as a means or instrumentality by which we received the salvation. Thanks

Amen, really not a challenging concept.

 

[Cameron143]

I answered multiple times, you just did not like the answer, and not just me many others.
Now you are not cool!

You have never told me what of the large swaths of people throughout history who never heard the gospel. How was God fair to them?
And I haven't been cool since I had kids.

 

[GWH]

The transitive verb "faith" is synonymous with belief. And the noun "faith" has a few definitions that uses the term "belief". It appears you're trying to create a false dichotomy between faith and belief.

And on on what side does "trust" fall on: faith, belief or both?

trust = faith = belief = will

 

[Jackson129]

You have never told me what of the large swaths of people throughout history who never heard the gospel. How was God fair to them?
And I haven't been cool since I had kids.

Considering I dont know where it is discussed in the Bible what happens to the Indians or some other group of people who never heard the law or the gospel. It is unwise to assume God was unfair to them. You dont know if they went up or down. Only God does.

 

[Cameron143]

Considering I dont know where it is discussed in the Bible what happens to the Indians or some other group of people who never heard the law or the gospel. It is unwise to assume God was unfair to them. You dont know if they went up or down. Only God does.

I believe the Judge of all the earth will always act righteously. Fairness, as I understand it, isn't an attribute of God. Righteousness is. It is God who causes us to differ from another. He sets the bounds of our habitation. God doesn't treat everyone the same. One is wealthy. One in want. One with many opportunities. One with few.
I don't know why God chooses as He does. I don't know the fate of those who never heard the gospel. But I do know those who have the Son have life, and those who don't, do not.
The only point I was making is that God often works very differently than people's idea of who God is allows for.

 

[Jackson129]

I believe the Judge of all the earth will always act righteously. Fairness, as I understand it, isn't an attribute of God. Righteousness is. It is God who causes us to differ from another. He sets the bounds of our habitation. God doesn't treat everyone the same. One is wealthy. One in want. One with many opportunities. One with few.
I don't know why God chooses as He does. I don't know the fate of those who never heard the gospel. But I do know those who have the Son have life, and those who don't, do not.
The only point I was making is that God often works very differently than people's idea of who God is allows for.

Fairness is not an attribute i will agree that righteousness is for sure. But what are the attributes of righteousness? Is Fairness not one of them?