Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

 

[Magenta]

Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, + 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).

 

[sawdust]

Thanks for attempting to answer this continued craziness.

No problem. I always tell people I am in my Father's business; redemption, reconciliation and forgiveness. If I can spread the good news, I try my best.

 

[sawdust]

@Magenta @Cameron143 @Rufus

Is the best you can do to continually cast aspersions on those who disagree with you?

Especially telling when you have to be corrected because you misunderstand what is said in the first place.

C'mon, you are all better than that.

 

[sawdust]

I suppose the antediluvians were so wicked because they had a nurturing problem, too, heh? Their every inclination and thoughts of their hearts were wicked continually and they filled the earth with violence.

The reason the Israelites "learned evil" that became so ingrained in them was due to their inherently evil hearts! Any child reading the bible can tell you that; for the ancient Israelites were certainly influenced by the pagan nations around them. But they were influenced because that was the inclination of their hearts to begin with. Their rebellious hearts and hostility towards God began at the Exodus and continued throughout all their days. How come they just couldn't exercise their "freewill" to shun evil and sinful influences altogether?

If the Israelites had inherently evil hearts, they had no need to learn evil.

The heart is the place in our soul where we hold that which we value most. Our souls are created by God in His image and likeness. To say our wicked hearts are inherent is to say God created wicked souls.

Good and evil must be learned, neither is inherent. Why do some prefer good and others evil? Who knows? It's a mystery.

They did exercise their free will, they used it to reject God. God did not withhold grace, but they withheld from believing His word.

Actually, the antediluvians were wiped out because their genetic makeup had become non-human except Noah and his family.

As to having a "nurturing problem"? You tell me. I said only God can teach us goodness, so was it God's fault for poor teaching?

 

[Slimsumo]

Hello Slim! Molinism also promotes man's inability, though the Molinist calls it radical depravity
instead of total depravity. Same difference. It seems aimed at mollifying those who cannot control
their knee jerk reactions to the truth of man's condition. It still teaches that very aspect of our being
is affected by the fall and renders us incapable of wanting to be saved. This in lieu of total depravity.
It is God’s persistent beckoning that overcomes our wicked obstinacy.

Molinism offers ROSES: (instead of TULIP)

R Radical Depravity (instead of total depravity)

O Overcoming Grace (instead of irresistible grace)

S Sovereign election (instead of unconditional election)

E Eternal life (instead of perseverance of saints)

S Singular Redemption (instead of limited atonement)

Would that be the same as the teaching of original sin? I have not looked into it much, but I do affirm the doctrine based on Romans 5.

 

[Magenta]

Would that be the same as the teaching of original sin? I have not looked into it much, but I do affirm the doctrine based on Romans 5.

I am not sure what you mean about original sin, although some here do deny that Adam's fall from grace affected the human race even though Scripture says the whole universe was affected. And many are those who claim man in his fallen state can choose to believe what he cannot even receive or comprehend while blinded to the truth being under the power and influence of the devil... slaves to sin and lovers of unrighteousness. They essentially have the flesh -within which nothing good exists- bringing forth the good fruit of faith despite Jesus saying it is impossible. It is with the heart that one believes, and man's heart is incurably wicked. To which verse in Romans 5 do you refer? Paul was amazing... and he affirmed man's inability.

Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.

 

[Slimsumo]

I am not sure what you mean about original sin, although some here do deny that Adam's fall from grace affected the human race even though Scripture says the whole universe was affected. And many are those who claim man in his fallen state can choose to believe what he cannot even receive or comprehend while blinded to the truth being under the power and influence of the devil... slaves to sin and lovers of unrighteousness. They essentially have the flesh -within which nothing good exists- bringing forth the good fruit of faith despite Jesus saying it is impossible. It is with the heart that one believes, and man's heart is incurably wicked. To which verse in Romans 5 do you refer? Paul was amazing... and he affirmed man's inability.

Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

If you are a molinist you would then affirm people have libertarian free will, but the way God predestines things is by creating the world in which people freely choose Him and that is how He orchestrates history and redemption. He creates the world in which He knows if He places John in X circumstance He will choose to do Y. Counter-factuals and middle knowledge is the idea, very complicated and not explicitly mentioned in Scripture but it does a good job of explaining the tension between predestination and free will, both of which are clearly taught in the Bible

 

[Melach]

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

it is tiresome that the same proof texts for free will are being used over and over again.

deuteronomy, choose this day whom you will serve. repent, do this, do that.

none of these are proof texts these people think they are. it speaks nothing about human capabilities to do so, we have to go to the other verses to find that, and we do, and as you have quoted, it is not a will that is completely free. it must be set free.

combine these two and you have compatibilist free will. meaning we do make choices freely all the time we are not coerced into it, but we make the choices based on our nature.

its not as complicated as you would think.

people please read this image Magenta posted and refute it if you can.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

If you are a molinist you would then affirm people have libertarian free will, but the way God predestines things is by creating the world in which people freely choose Him and that is how He orchestrates history and redemption. He creates the world in which He knows if He places John in X circumstance He will choose to do Y. Counter-factuals and middle knowledge is the idea, very complicated and not explicitly mentioned in Scripture but it does a good job of explaining the tension between predestination and free will, both of which are clearly taught in the Bible

I would not say I was a Molinist but I have been mentioning Molinism here for the past seven years... especially when people would say something like you are either this or that haha (as in Calvinist or Arminian). I think the middle knowledge idea diminishes God's omniscience, which I have seen open theists do as well. Some pretty crazy concepts get thrown about and the whole libertarian free will thing just clouds the issue also because the eternal fate of man's soul has nothing to do with the colour of socks you choose to wear or what you decide to eat for lunch on any given day. Those considerations really don't have anything at all to do with whether or not the unregenerate man is free to choose to believe that which he is hostile in his mind towards and can neither receive nor comprehend from the God he hates as he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness while a child of wrath with an incurably wicked heart. One of the claims is man has everything he needs (even though his heart needs replacing) and another claim is he is not such a bad guy (despite the many many verses from the beginning of the Bible to the very end that say the opposite) and another claim is spiritual revelation is not required for people to come to know God. They simply prove they have no idea what they are even talking about. It has also been said by free willers that the gospel is not hidden. Scripture says the exact opposite!!! As @Melach has just said the verses people think prove that man's will is free actually do no such thing. There is not one single verse in the Bible that articulates what they claim. Those who promote man's free will routinely contradict and outright deny a plethora of Scripture verses.

What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?

 

[GWH]

I suppose the antediluvians were so wicked because they had a nurturing problem, too, heh? Their every inclination and thoughts of their hearts were wicked continually and they filled the earth with violence.

The reason the Israelites "learned evil" that became so ingrained in them was due to their inherently evil hearts! Any child reading the bible can tell you that; for the ancient Israelites were certainly influenced by the pagan nations around them. But they were influenced because that was the inclination of their hearts to begin with. Their rebellious hearts and hostility towards God began at the Exodus and continued throughout all their days. How come they just couldn't exercise their "freewill" to shun evil and sinful influences altogether?

"Their every inclination and thoughts of their hearts were wicked continually and they filled the earth with violence."

Like the Marxists in modern times.

 

[GWH]

Correct. Jeremiah 13 is chock full of free will, volition, choices and consequences.

And super-determinists take note: the wayward Israelites knew exactly what they were doing in sinning against the command of YHVH and were without excuse.

[Jer 13:10 KJV]
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

[Jer 13:11 KJV] 11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

Note the cynicism and WILLFUL rebellion noted here:

[Jer 13:12 KJV] 12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?

And yes, another swing and a miss for the super-determinists. This is to be expected as their views are contrary to Biblical truth.

Yes, and another Scripture cited by tulipists is Jer. 17:9a, “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.”
The immediate context includes:

Jer. 17:5, “Cursed is the one who trusts in man… and whose heart turns away from the Lord.”
Jer. 17:7, “But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him.”
Jer. 17:10, “I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.”

Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, “You are always righteous, O Lord… you see me and test my thoughts about you…
This is what the Lord says… if the wicked learn well the ways of my people… then they will be established among my people.”

Jer. 14:10, “This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander…
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now … punish them for their sins.”

Jer. 18:8-11, “If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned…
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it…
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you.”

Oops!

 

[GWH]

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

Yes, Jesus frees souls from slavery to sin, enabling them to believe and be saved in heaven.
The pre-incarnate Jesus/Spirit of God did the same for pre-NT souls, most notably Abraham per Romans:

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.

19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.

20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.

21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.

22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.

23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).

 

[Melach]

I would not say I was a Molinist but I have been mentioning Molinism here for the past seven years... especially when people would say something like you are either this or that haha (as in Calvinist or Arminian). I think the middle knowledge idea diminishes God's omniscience, which I have seen open theists do as well. Some pretty crazy concepts get thrown about and the whole libertarian free will thing just clouds the issue also because the eternal fate of man's soul has nothing to do with the colour of socks you choose to wear or what you decide to eat for lunch on any given day. Those considerations really don't have anything at all to do with whether or not the unregenerate man is free to choose to believe that which he is hostile in his mind towards and can neither receive nor comprehend from the God he hates as he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness while a child of wrath with an incurably wicked heart. One of the claims is man has everything he needs (even though his heart needs replacing) and another claim is he is not such a bad guy (despite the many many verses from the beginning of the Bible to the very end that say the opposite) and another claim is spiritual revelation is not required for people to come to know God. They simply prove they have no idea what they are even talking about. It has also been said by free willers that the gospel is not hidden. Scripture says the exact opposite!!! As @Melach has just said the verses people think prove that man's will is free actually do no such thing. There is not one single verse in the Bible that articulates what they claim. Those who promote man's free will routinely contradict and outright deny a plethora of Scripture verses.


What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?

preach it sister! its crazy how many mental gymnastics people are willing to do to preserve the libertarian free will idea. even if its not articulated in the bible they will do anything they can to get rid of the fact that God is in charge of our salvation.

if you want to see some wresting of the bible look up commentaries from the free willer crowd on acts 13:48 -- that is something else. we hear about middle voice, we hear about these people even appointing themselves to eternal life. its unreal.

 

[studier]

You're changing your argument. You said the verse means a thing heard. So I ask again: does this mean that someone silently reading the word of God cannot be saved?

Your point?

 

[GWH]

Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, + 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).

Man is born in sin unless his parents raised him to believe GW from infancy (2Tim. 3:15-17).
Man's heart is deceitful and beyond cure when it becomes calloused (Matt. 13:14-15, 23:37).
However, the uncalloused heart is enabled to seek salvation and find God (Matt. 7:7, Heb. 11:6).
God's enabling of seeking is not irresistible; nor does it pry open a hardened heart (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).

 

[studier]

it is tiresome that the same proof texts for free will TULIP are being used over and over again.

As another here likes to do, FTFY.

 

[studier]

if you want to see some wresting of the bible look up commentaries from the free willer crowd on acts 13:48 -- that is something else. we hear about middle voice, we hear about these people even appointing themselves to eternal life. its unreal.

Care to share the specifics of the debates?

Do you agree that the spelling of the word makes either passive or middle possible?

Do you see that care is being taken in the Text to inform us that God-fearing Gentiles were in the synagogue Acts13:16, Acts13:43 and thus had been exposed and attracted to the God of the Jews?

Do you think it's appropriate to consider that the God-fearing Gentiles has chosen to attend synagogue and listen to teaching of the Scriptures?

Do you think all were being told about the Gentiles eagerness being spoken of in these verses is telling us about their mindset about God and His Messiah that had been developed in synagogue before Paul arrived Acts13:42-44, Acts13:48?

Do you see volition involved in the active rejection in Acts13:46 carrying on what Jesus had been through and said about their will per Matt23:37; Luke13:34; John5:40?

Was it necessary to proclaim the Gospel to the Gentiles spoken of in for them to have eternal life per Acts13:48?

Do you know what all the potential translations are of the verb being translated as "appointed"?

If you can make fun of the interpretations of others, then you must have some learned reasons to explain these Scriptures and the issues you're speaking of.

FWIW, this is likely the best section of Scripture to see what Paul was actually proclaiming in his journeys evangelizing and teaching. It's a very important section of Scripture pertinent to the foundations of Paul's writings. I'm sure you know this.

 

[JL9999]

I suppose the version of Christianity one follows sets the meaning of if grace. Without going into agonizing detail of the various versions, may I just sugggedt that Christ’s sacrifice be sufficient to cover everyone who ever lived, good and evil. By grace I mean free willing, resurrection from the grave into a glorified (as we would see it now) body as He, Jesus, arose with. It is with that body that we undergo sanctions for our sinfulness in hell or free gift or reward of paradise. Beyond that, comes the disagreement among Christians. I can’t speculate as to what each version of Christianity teaches. The Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Egyptian Coptic, and Creedal Christians teach nuanced versions. Is it safe to say that everyone agrees so far? Or have I left something out?

 

[studier]

may I just sugggedt that Christ’s sacrifice be sufficient to cover everyone who ever lived, good and evil.

This is at issue in these disagreements when the following is involved (see the "L")

TULIP is the anacronym for the problematic part of the doctrine of election, which says God determines that only some sinners will be saved and that the majority of humanity are condemned to hell. This dogma may be described as follows:

T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient MFW to seek salvation.

U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.

L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls.

I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved.

P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved.