Loss of salvation???
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For those who believe in loss of salvation at some elusive point of sin quantity and/or type, what is that threshold? Please enlighten us all. Who among us has become so pure in himself that he can say that he or she has indeed kept their salvation because of abstaining from sin? What's the threshold of righteousness for this retention if it's not Christ? We who are of HIS body can ALL say that we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, so what more could anyone do or be by any measure of effort?
This incessant jealousy over the idea that one is saved to the uttermost in Christ is quite a remarkable thing to watch being played out here. The horriffic cliche' festival that ensues from other false teaching pastors is also manic to say the least. The claim for loss of Salvation never includes an exhaustive and definitive line of demarcation whereby we can see where that precipice is located in this life. All that's ever provided is ethereal cosmetics over man's own works to try and make it look and sound spiritual rather than steeped in the usual fare of socially engineered intellect mired in the attire of paganism.
MM
This incessant jealousy over the idea that one is saved to the uttermost in Christ is quite a remarkable thing to watch being played out here. The horriffic cliche' festival that ensues from other false teaching pastors is also manic to say the least. The claim for loss of Salvation never includes an exhaustive and definitive line of demarcation whereby we can see where that precipice is located in this life. All that's ever provided is ethereal cosmetics over man's own works to try and make it look and sound spiritual rather than steeped in the usual fare of socially engineered intellect mired in the attire of paganism.
MM
To clarify, my Catholic heritage teaches that "born of water" means infant sprinkling (they call baptism).
I wasn't told until I was a certain age that I was begotten from my mother , not a stork, nor the basin of water 💦 the priest flicks upon the baby after it was born of it's...... mother's water filled womb.
They superimpose the phrase, out of context, "born of water" to mean spiritually born in a literal hidden symbolic but actually the FIRST birth of the child getting wet by way of the appointed authority, the RC priest who uses a special holy water to perform such a mystical "reality." It's as clear as mud. They call that a sacrament of which there are 7 or 8.
Some protestant founders were priests who held to that teaching even after leaving their Roman Catholicism. It's been ingrained ever since.
All of those activities are good deeds/ works by which we were taught have divine power to impart grace to those who take the effort to do them.
I repented (reconsidered and changed my mind) once I learned that salvation from Hell was by God's grace through faith in His only begotten Son......John 3:16. KJV
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2
Applied to me after repenting of works based ,(faith in water baptism), salvation....
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us."
Titus 3:5
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Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Glad you saw the light are you still humble? We all need to be, none of us know it all and never will.
I NEVER tell you what I think, I just share HIS WORD.
I LOVE all of HIS word again ALL OF IT.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him (((should not perish))), but have everlasting life.
It says should not because if you believe in HIM you should obey HIM.
If you believe JESUS in 3:16 then you should believe HIM in 3:3-5. Look what he says just before that in the same conversation.
John 3,
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
JESUS told HIS disciple's NOT TO GO OUT with out until they get the PROMISE OF THE FATHER.
Acts 1,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the (((promise of the Father))), which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
This happened Acts 2,
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Then this happened the first message that JESUS promised to be preached.
ALMOST THE SAME THING that what JESUS says in John 3:5!!
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Mark 16:16-17
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Do you call being baptized a work?
If so can we enter Heaven with our sins? If not how do we get rid of them?
I NEVER tell you what I think, I just share HIS WORD.
I LOVE all of HIS word again ALL OF IT.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him (((should not perish))), but have everlasting life.
It says should not because if you believe in HIM you should obey HIM.
If you believe JESUS in 3:16 then you should believe HIM in 3:3-5. Look what he says just before that in the same conversation.
John 3,
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
JESUS told HIS disciple's NOT TO GO OUT with out until they get the PROMISE OF THE FATHER.
Acts 1,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the (((promise of the Father))), which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
This happened Acts 2,
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Then this happened the first message that JESUS promised to be preached.
ALMOST THE SAME THING that what JESUS says in John 3:5!!
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Mark 16:16-17
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Do you call being baptized a work?
If so can we enter Heaven with our sins? If not how do we get rid of them?
John 3:16 isn't an uncertainty as many use the term today if they live up to the standard of perfection. It's defined two verses later.
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
A. Salvation and condemnation are imperatives, not a possibility.
B. No mention of water baptism as a requirement. The man either believing on Christ and no longer condemned or not believing on Jesus, so he remains condemned.
Nicodemus and the Pharisees taught the people that they must turn from their sins and keep the laws to be saved.
A person can either not be a sinner because he does not sin, has not sinned and never will sin.....
OR
Since we are in John,
John 6:40
"40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Do you know how many times that word believe is used in the gospel of John, King James Bible/ Traditional Text?
Where's the water in any of those verses? Do you honestly think we could all take a bath and be sin free? Those three verses all have one thing in common, the Son.
Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
The Church is not baptized in water, it is baptized in Christ! This is why it is held to a higher standard because it has been given more than any other peoples in the history of the age. We have been submerged (baptized) into the life, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is why our sin is dealt with when we are baptized because Christ has taken them away, not any body of water and we are now in the place of their remission ie. Christ.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (note: it is the Christ who effectively dealt with sin, no more shadows of the things to come, now the substance of reality in Christ's person and works)
Romans 3:25
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, (note: applied through faith, not water)
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (note: not only did Christ take away the sin of believers but also unbelievers; no more sin barrier which is why anyone can come to Christ)
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (note: those who believe in Him, not those who get dunked in water, who say a prayer, walk down an aisle, give all their possessions away, treat others with respect and tolerance .. and the list could go on and on)
If you are going to quote the three same verses at least open your eyes to who you are being baptized into and realize that such a feat requires something far stronger than water hence, John baptized with water (a symbol of something greater) but Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit (a permanent and effective reality). A supernatural event requires a supernatural means.
Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
There was to be no more water baptism after Pentecost but even the Apostles were slow to learn and got it wrong initially.
Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
There is always hope in Christ, even for the slowest learner, the dimmest mind and the stubborn rebel for greater is He in you than in the world.
1 John 4:4
You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
The Church is not baptized in water, it is baptized in Christ! This is why it is held to a higher standard because it has been given more than any other peoples in the history of the age. We have been submerged (baptized) into the life, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is why our sin is dealt with when we are baptized because Christ has taken them away, not any body of water and we are now in the place of their remission ie. Christ.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (note: it is the Christ who effectively dealt with sin, no more shadows of the things to come, now the substance of reality in Christ's person and works)
Romans 3:25
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, (note: applied through faith, not water)
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (note: not only did Christ take away the sin of believers but also unbelievers; no more sin barrier which is why anyone can come to Christ)
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (note: those who believe in Him, not those who get dunked in water, who say a prayer, walk down an aisle, give all their possessions away, treat others with respect and tolerance .. and the list could go on and on)
If you are going to quote the three same verses at least open your eyes to who you are being baptized into and realize that such a feat requires something far stronger than water hence, John baptized with water (a symbol of something greater) but Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit (a permanent and effective reality). A supernatural event requires a supernatural means.
Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
There was to be no more water baptism after Pentecost but even the Apostles were slow to learn and got it wrong initially.
Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
There is always hope in Christ, even for the slowest learner, the dimmest mind and the stubborn rebel for greater is He in you than in the world.
1 John 4:4
You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Yea, we ARE BORN IN SIN.
So do you believe just faith saves you??? Any chance you can show me how faith gets rid of our sins and fills you with HIS spirit?
What about the word OBEY, how many time is that in HIS word?
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Tell me what you think of these 4 verses? TRASH THEM?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Mark 16:16-17
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
So do you believe just faith saves you??? Any chance you can show me how faith gets rid of our sins and fills you with HIS spirit?
What about the word OBEY, how many time is that in HIS word?
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Tell me what you think of these 4 verses? TRASH THEM?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Mark 16:16-17
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Trash them?
No!
One reason that I don't spend much time on this sub forum is that most of you guys are pastors or retired ministers of some kind.
I get unreasonable demands for my time and will not likely convince you.
See Acts 10:47 KJV.
The gentiles heard the gospel and believed.
They were acknowledged as having the Holy Spirit yet they had MOT been water baptized.
As to faith,/ belief alone.
John's gospel records exactly 100 times that term.
No mention of "repent of their sins."
No water baptism requirements for salvation.
100 times.
Who should we believe?
No!
One reason that I don't spend much time on this sub forum is that most of you guys are pastors or retired ministers of some kind.
I get unreasonable demands for my time and will not likely convince you.
See Acts 10:47 KJV.
The gentiles heard the gospel and believed.
They were acknowledged as having the Holy Spirit yet they had MOT been water baptized.
As to faith,/ belief alone.
John's gospel records exactly 100 times that term.
No mention of "repent of their sins."
No water baptism requirements for salvation.
100 times.
Who should we believe?
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20
The end
John 20
The end
And I keep telling you what the scripture says. Christ gets rid of sin. Those who believe in Him are born again (made spiritually alive by being born of the Spirit) and are baptized with the Spirit into Him where there is no sin and where our sin has been nailed to the Cross. "It is finished"! They will go into God's Kingdom which, in the eternal state, will be in Heaven and on Earth.
Those who do not believe in Him will suffer the baptism of fire. They remain condemned because they are found without faith, (faith comes from the word Rom.10:17). They never believed in Christ.
John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those who do not believe in Him will suffer the baptism of fire. They remain condemned because they are found without faith, (faith comes from the word Rom.10:17). They never believed in Christ.
John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
As I said ALL OF HIS WORD.
Acts 10
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
You are right they were not, same as Acts 2:4 they must have been baptized later.
Are you saying JESUS filled you like he did the the Gentiles in Acts 10?
Problem is you can't back up faith or belief alone gets you reborn.
You don't have to obey HIS word you do you.
Acts 10
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
You are right they were not, same as Acts 2:4 they must have been baptized later.
Are you saying JESUS filled you like he did the the Gentiles in Acts 10?
Problem is you can't back up faith or belief alone gets you reborn.
You don't have to obey HIS word you do you.