Looking forward to the cross?

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#41
In Acts 2:23 Peter says that Jesus was crucified by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God and by the wicked hands of men. No mention of Satan.
Wicked men...the sons of Satan. See John 8. Satan's lust to destroy the seed...Satan was a murdering from the beginning, and yet, he never physically murdered anyone. He always sought men to carry out his lusts.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,646
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#42
Hebrews 11:

13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac on the altar. He who had received the promises was ready to offer his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.” 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and in a sense, he did receive Isaac back from death.

"However, they saw them..........." So I disagree with the OP that disputes that the OT saints looked forward to the cross.
They all died in faith. Faith in what God told them at any given time in history. They did not die in faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, the d,b,r for sins. Remember, faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Noah had faith in what God told him about the flood and the building of an ark. Where's the evidence of Noah's faith? Noah built the ark.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#43
Wicked men...the sons of Satan. See John 8. Satan's lust to destroy the seed...Satan was a murdering from the beginning, and yet, he never physically murdered anyone. He always sought men to carry out his lusts.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
That's a pretty big leap from wicked men to spawn of Satan. Peter isn't talking to Pharisees in his sermon, but Jews in general. Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees. Peter wasn't.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
16,013
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#44
Revealed to him by God, yes, many saw and looked forward to the day the Messiah would come ( Hebrews 11)and make things right, yet they did not understand or know the cross of Son and his resurrection, just looked forward to the Messiah to set all things straight, where salvation is at for all who decide to believe God over the self and all others too, thank you, it is personal for every person between God and them too, thank you
As I see you see this truth too , thanks
“, yet they did not understand or know the cross of Son and his resurrection”

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-5, 8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel is written in all the prophets since the beginning of time they knew of the messiah and his death and resurrection but its effectual power to remit sins hadn’t been fulfilled yet .

That’s why it wasn’t until Jesus came that there was a mass resurrection , the one promised in the ot to the saints nly after Jesus died for remission of sins did they rise up from death because the gospel that was written had come to pass In Gods time and way

What I mean is they knew this beforehand and some believed

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then hundreds of years later it was fulfilled

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They onew and looked forward to what was written and believed in hope and they received the promise of resurrection based on Christ even though they lived before he was born faith is believing what you’ve heard even though you can’t see it yourself . They heard the prophets speak of Jesus death and resurrection and looked forward in faith we look back on his death and look forward to his return and our resurrection promised in the new covenant . It’s all faith when you hear the word whether a thousand years before or two thousand years later
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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Frankston, Victoria
christianlife.au
#45
They all died in faith. Faith in what God told them at any given time in history. They did not die in faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, the d,b,r for sins. Remember, faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Noah had faith in what God told him about the flood and the building of an ark. Where's the evidence of Noah's faith? Noah built the ark.
What do you think God told them? It was faith in what was promised for the future. God did not reveal everything to everyone, but there are hints all the way through God's word. The psalms have many promises and declarations of what was to come, as has Isaiah. The Jews looked forward to a Saviour, to the Messiah. That's because at least some could see it from God's word.

Luke 2:25-32

Now there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. The Holy Spirit had revealed to him that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. Led by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. And when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for Him what was customary under the Law, Simeon took Him in his arms and blessed God, saying:

“Sovereign Lord, as You have promised, You now dismiss Your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen Your salvation, which You have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to Your people Israel.”
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
16,013
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#48
Amen

“Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:10-12‬ ‭

Prophecy foretells but with fulfillment comes the reality
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#49
What do you think God told them? It was faith in what was promised for the future. God did not reveal everything to everyone, but there are hints all the way through God's word. The psalms have many promises and declarations of what was to come, as has Isaiah. The Jews looked forward to a Saviour, to the Messiah. That's because at least some could see it from God's word.
Yes, and we can put them together and see how those prophesies point to what the Lord would accomplish, however, at the time, those OT saints could not see the cross. If they could see the cross, why was no one looking forward to it in the day of Jesus? His own disciples had no understanding of the cross. God hid it from them.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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Frankston, Victoria
christianlife.au
#50
Yes, and we can put them together and see how those prophesies point to what the Lord would accomplish, however, at the time, those OT saints could not see the cross. If they could see the cross, why was no one looking forward to it in the day of Jesus? His own disciples had no understanding of the cross. God hid it from them.
Lord Jesus hid it from the disciples to protect them. Thomas had an inkling -
"Then Thomas called Didymus said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.”" John 11:16

The OT saints knew that what they were seeing was future. God did not need to hide it from them.

I do not say that the OT saints saw the cross as clearly as Christians do now. But they knew something of the future. Job is the oldest book in the Bible. Job knew that the Redeemer would one day come to the earth. (Job 19:25). Job knew that he would see the Redeemer even after his (Job's) death. Isaiah 53 is so clearly about Jesus that Orthodox Jews have stopped reading it.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
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#51
When people say that "the OT saints looked forward to the cross"; I don't they they mean that the OT believers knew the exact details of the events of the Gospel.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
16,013
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#52
Yes, and we can put them together and see how those prophesies point to what the Lord would accomplish, however, at the time, those OT saints could not see the cross. If they could see the cross, why was no one looking forward to it in the day of Jesus? His own disciples had no understanding of the cross. God hid it from them.
It’s the person who suffered and died on the cross for the worlds sin that’s important.

The “ message of the cross “ doesn’t have alot to do with a cross but the suffering and death of Jesus as his blood ran down and his breath left his lungs. The cross just points us to Jesus suffering on our behalf like the prophets did beforhand

appx 700 bc before Jesus was born

“But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Appx 50-70 ad after he lives and died and rose and ascended to heavens throne now there’s more revelation they know who it’s talking about now , they saw his way of life and example for gods children they now have the rest of the mysteries the prophets introduce in thier visions and prophecies and psalms

“To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness;

by his wounds you have been healed.” For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭NIV‬‬

the prophets had less o formation because ot hadn’t happened yet the name Jesus isn’t even mentioned in the ot but they wrote almost the whole gospel down from his miracle birth to his miraculous ministry and power to particular things that happened throughout to his suffering and death on the cross to his resurrection from the grave and ascention to the right hand of God in heaven it’s all foretold but hadn’t been fulfilled

what they knew was Moses law a burning mountain a voice like a trumpet that terrified telling them “keep away from me lest I destroy you all “ pillars of smoke thunder and lightning ect

But now we know God in truth without the veil and blindness left by the law

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; ( they couldn’t see past what they knew Moses law ) which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s hard for israel to let go of the old covenant that made them seperate and special and chosen and see the new it was thier oroblem in the gospel it’s why they were always questioning Jesus according to Moses law and he would tell them other things and then they would accuse him

They missed the message of the prophets and Moses in the law that’s all about Jesus the son who would preach the words of Gods requirement , then suffer and die as an atonement for sin , then raise up from death and be seated at Gods right hand….. later to return from heaven at the end of the world

the prophets were always preaching that meaaage since the world began

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

foretelling is before fulfillment which brings revelation and more information and indersrsnding
 

Suze

Well-known member
Mar 14, 2025
482
273
63
#53
Satan would have never initiated the cross if he'd known the outcome. If any man before the cross understood that the Messiah would die on a cross for sins and resurrect the third day, Satan would have known it and would have not allowed it.

1 Corinthians 2:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Can you show were OT saints trusted in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for sins? Thanks.
Satan ? In the garden of Gethsemane , Jesus prays to God and says : Thy Will be done , not mine .
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#55
John 3:16 has no mention of the cross. It has no mention of the death, burial, and resurrection for sins. We can read into John 3:16 with the knowledge we have now.
It, might be best to read the first 2 chapters of John then the third and 4th chapters, to be in context, and understand from God personally God's love that flesh does not understand to begin with. Best for me at least to read 25 verses before a verse, and 25 verses after the verse. looking at a verse only is very easy way to cherry pick verses, and stay dead, and not think one is still dead, and others listening to these one liner preachers. For me at least.
Just for anyone's information. the Bible is a Testament to God's Love and mercy for us all y'all. Thank you
John 3:16 is a culmination of the written word of John from Chapter 1 forward, thanks
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#56
“, yet they did not understand or know the cross of Son and his resurrection”

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-5, 8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel is written in all the prophets since the beginning of time they knew of the messiah and his death and resurrection but its effectual power to remit sins hadn’t been fulfilled yet .

That’s why it wasn’t until Jesus came that there was a mass resurrection , the one promised in the ot to the saints nly after Jesus died for remission of sins did they rise up from death because the gospel that was written had come to pass In Gods time and way

What I mean is they knew this beforehand and some believed

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then hundreds of years later it was fulfilled

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They onew and looked forward to what was written and believed in hope and they received the promise of resurrection based on Christ even though they lived before he was born faith is believing what you’ve heard even though you can’t see it yourself . They heard the prophets speak of Jesus death and resurrection and looked forward in faith we look back on his death and look forward to his return and our resurrection promised in the new covenant . It’s all faith when you hear the word whether a thousand years before or two thousand years later
Absolutely, thanks you, Hebrews 11 looking forward. We today looking back as it has now happened and is in place for us to appreciate and do as led in love and mercy given us to all
Thank you Brother, for the dispensational truth, mainly Father and Son as Won
 
Oct 19, 2024
5,680
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USA-TX
#57
David knew as many others did too, as Father God revealed to each, as needed to know, to predict to fit when Son came here to earth to first reconcile us all as forgiven in his one time willing death alone, then new life in his resurrected life given to us by Father, Daddy, Papa. Yet, Daddy., PaPa, Father the Holy Spirit of Truth, did not live in and through anyone yet before the cross, where we have a before and after the cross, that is to men misunderstood much, mixing Law and grace as one, anyone sees fit to be right and others wrong, which is not good for my soul.
They, of the Old Testament, looked forward to the Messiah coming, not understanding yet how it will be done for them, yet stood in belief to this day will happen, however it takes place Hebrews 11, just not seen how yet.
Those today in belief to it is done. for them reconciled, forgiven and are given the new life in risen Son from Father, Daddy, PaPa see new and love all in God Father's mercy and truth of Son for us all, thank you 1 John 4:18-19
Yes, Col. 2:17 and Heb. 10:1 refer to the OT law and other practices as a shadow--or what we might call a foreshadowing--of things to come, perhaps comparable to 1Cor. 13:12 calling what we know even now after the mystery of the Gospel has been revealed a poor or reflection of what is to come.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#58
Yes, Col. 2:17 and Heb. 10:1 refer to the OT law and other practices as a shadow--or what we might call a foreshadowing--of things to come, perhaps comparable to 1Cor. 13:12 calling what we know even now after the mystery of the Gospel has been revealed a poor or reflection of what is to come.
Today in Son, by Son it is John 19:30 done completed for us to walk new in new life given us, in the risen Son, to love all, over the few one used to, I used to, before being born new by God to see and learn new, even especially from mistakes still made in being born new by God in risen Son, seeing by God, I and all others remain forgiven by God, to me at least, The "I" gets in my way, and 'I" think I got it and do not got it or get it
I still to this day have no righteousness of my own ever, None!!!!!!! yet I do have righteousness and this righteousness is not mine, it is God's gift to appreciate and learn new in and be new in Love to all in the same mercy and truth given me through Son for me and all, others too, thank you
It his this love and mercy that overcame evil and still overcomes evil John 16:33, read the whole Chapter please
 
Oct 24, 2012
17,947
849
113
#59
Yes, Col. 2:17 and Heb. 10:1 refer to the OT law and other practices as a shadow--or what we might call a foreshadowing--of things to come, perhaps comparable to 1Cor. 13:12 calling what we know even now after the mystery of the Gospel has been revealed a poor or reflection of what is to come.
Today in Son, by Son it is John 19:30 done completed for us to walk new in new life given us, in the risen Son, to love all, over the few one used to, I used to, before being born new by God to see and learn new, even especially from mistakes still made in being born new by God in risen Son, seeing by God, I and all others remain forgiven by God, to me at least, The "I" gets in my way, and 'I" think I got it and do not got it or get it
I still to this day have no righteousness of my own ever, None!!!!!!! yet I do have righteousness and this righteousness is not mine, it is God's gift to appreciate and learn new in and be new in Love to all in the same mercy and truth given me through Son for me and all, others too, thank you
It his this love and mercy that overcame evil and still overcomes evil John 16:33, read the whole Chapter please