Understanding God’s election

[Pilgrimshope]

The dead is used differently in the scripture, I am speaking about spiritual death... which is to be separated spiritual from the Creator.
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive;"

Yes agree ALL people are image bearers, yet a baby in not born in fellowship with the creator, that requires a second spiritual birth.

But I absolutely agree many Calvinists some here on this forum have stated God only loves the elect.

The Calvinists insist, without much biblical foundation, that the term "dead" connotes an innate moral inability inherently passed down to every human being as a result of the fall of Adam.”

yeah again I’ve never came across that teaching in scripture.

 

[HeIsHere]

yeah again I’ve never came across that teaching in scripture.

Okay, well sometimes one has to dig into the individual words and phrases and what they mean in the original language.
And to add, not my teaching but coming form people who have made this examination.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Okay, well sometimes one has to dig into the individual words and phrases and what they mean in the original language.
And to add, not my teaching but coming form people who have made this examination.

yeah there’s no offense or anything I’m just saying I’ve never read on the Bible that children are born seperated from God needing “spiritual rebirth “

I’ve read how adults are tempted and sin and seperate themselves from God because they have sinned

But not that little innocent children are just born already separated and spiritually dead “ from God

i believe death passes upon us because we sin not that we’re already born seperate d or condemned . Do you realize what that would mean for the children who pass away before they ever really learn about Jesus ?

i guess it’s a fundamental question are humans born and made wrong ? Or does our sin corrupt our hearts as we partake of it.


I think we die spiritually because of sin and not that we’re born dead spiritually …..

“but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;

and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

So lust -temptation - sin and then resulting in death and needing a new life being condemned as a sinner ….

i don’t think we’re born wrong I think we’re corrupted by the world we dwell in and then die spiritually because of sin

 

[HeIsHere]

yeah there’s no offense or anything I’m just saying I’ve never read on the Bible that children are born seperated from God needing “spiritual rebirth “

I’ve read how adults are tempted and sin and seperate themselves from God because they have sinned

But not that little innocent children are just born already separated and spiritually dead “ from God

Interesting, yes very.
They are born innocent and then due to sin at some point they become separate from God.

Yes I can see merit to this for sure ... so the propensity to eventually sin what can we attribute it to, what is the temptation?

 

[Rufus]

“But none of the passages you quoted means that "every creature" will accept the gospel. “

again not something I said your arguing with your own mind

“Furthermore, Christians should preach the gospel to as many people as we can since we, UNLIKE God, are not omniscient. We have no idea who God's elect are. But God does, and this brings me to the next point.”

yeah I agree I’m again not saying we should t preach the gospel to everyone lol I’m the one who quoted that we should do everyone can have the opportunity to choose life . I’m saying anyone can be saved If they hear and believe the gospel . So I agree people should share the gospel with everyone.

Gods elect is Jesus tbose who believe in Christ after they hear the gospel become the elect spoken of “ in him “ there are no individual people outside of Christ . selected for salvation and others who aren’t it’s all based on what they do in response to a gods word

God knows us all because he created us all . In the end it’s not going to be secret election but this

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

that’s true of all people and why this promise is so imperative

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬

notice they aren’t already saved or already condemned ? And it isn’t about gods selection of one and not another but it’s based on whichever of all creatures hear the gospel and respond in faith ?

i believe Gods Will is for everyone to be saved

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

But we have our own Will and have to accept the offer to save us in the gospel. So God wanting all people to be saved I believe but that is t sayong all people will be saved , they have to hear the gospel and believe to be saved ….or they might instead react like this when they hear it

“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

See to say “God wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth “

thats biblical.

To say God isnt being slow to return , he is being patient with us because he doesnt want us to perish but to come to repentance before that day “

is biblical.

to say god is going to judge everyone according to thier deeds through Christ Jesus and the gospel …..is biblical

“The elect” is Jesus to be “the elect” and to have an inheritance from the lord ….is found here in Christ

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But your windy tome doesn't change the fact that your god merely presents opportunities for men to be saved, since it's man's will that ultimately determines (effectuates) his spiritual, eternal destiny. And that is a totally absurd notion if God in fact is an all-knowing God.

yeah my God is based on the one the scriptures present is the difference …. like the one who wants all men To be saved and to know the truth

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

So he sent the gospel offering salvation to all creation and said this

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬


I can’t help that the scriptures aren’t acceptable to you but “ my God “ is the one presented in the Bible who doesn’t create and work puppets but created free people so he’s trying to teach to choose the good so they don’t die …..

But amazingly some answer him “ but creator why are you telling me to choose good and live ? To listen to you and do what your saying would be “ trusting in my own works to save me “ 😂😂😂😂

The reasons to ignore what God told us to do seem endless even “ that’s trusting yourself “ 😂😂😂

I hear that twilight zone music starting doo doo doo Dee foo fee foodee

If God "WANTS" all men w/o exception to be saved, then all men would be saved. On the other the biblical concept is that God desires that all men w/o distinction be saved. Learn the difference between the two concepts.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Interesting, yes very.
They are born innocent and then due to sin at some point they become separate from God.

Yes I can see merit to this for sure ... so the propensity to eventually sin what can we attribute it to, what is the temptation?

When they consumned the knowledge of good and evil it corrupted man’s flesh

and left us in a situation where no matter what we do evil is always there waiting for an opportunity to draw us away. Through the lusts of our eyes and flesh and our pride of being mankind upon the earth having dominion ect

it’s just my own view and nothing to be taken as more than that but I believe mankind living in a corrupt and wicked world filled with man’s fantasy and lusts all around us is where temptations come from

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


satan exploits our weaknesses and tempts like when Jesus had fasted and was hungry satan attacked his hunger for food trying to get him to break his fast before he was finished and fail the test in the desert.

Our flesh is weak because it was corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Leaving us open to many temptations , through the lusts in our flesh which is what was corrupted. Good and evil became a conflict within mankind because they ate the fruit .

Our problem is tbat both good and evil are trying to fill our heart and mind so there’s an internal conflict leaving us in a bind with death as the outcome

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭

“ my spirit will not always strive with man because he also is flesh “

The spirit is willing , but the flesh is weak “

“Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭14:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit,

and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:9‬ ‭

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:14, 16‬ ‭

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

Learning how to deal with and overcome temptations we face is part of that ^^^process above actually

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But your windy tome doesn't change the fact that your god merely presents opportunities for men to be saved, since it's man's will that ultimately determines (effectuates) his spiritual, eternal destiny. And that is a totally absurd notion if God in fact is an all-knowing God.



If God "WANTS" all men w/o exception to be saved, then all men would be saved. On the other the biblical concept is that God desires that all men w/o distinction be saved. Learn the difference between the two concepts.

“If God "WANTS" all men w/o exception to be saved, then all men would be saved.”

nope that’s just what you guys think , Gods been telling us all along the choice is ours ….some just refuse to listen

hes provided for everyone’s salvation but everyone has to choose themselves between good and evil ….

but this is pointless I have no interest in circles and arguing with no reason and rhyme. Too old for it not enough time to simply waste for no reason . You are welcome to believe anything you choose it’s not a stub of my toe or anything if you disagree lol I’m good with it.

 

[Rufus]

Of course He could.

AMEN to that! One drop of Jesus' shed blood could have efficaciously saved the entire world if He had ordained that! But as it is, God has chosen instead to "play favorites", since he has historically treated men unequally. He treated the Israelities in the wilderness differently with the bronze serpent incident. Even before that, he treated the Hebrews in Egypt differently than he did the Egyptians. And even long before that, He treated Adam and Eve in the Garden differently. God is most definitely a "respecter of persons".

 

[Rufus]

“If God "WANTS" all men w/o exception to be saved, then all men would be saved.”

nope that’s just what you guys think , Gods been telling us all along the choice is ours ….some just refuse to listen

hes provided for everyone’s salvation but everyone has to choose themselves between good and evil ….

but this is pointless I have no interest in circles and arguing with no reason and rhyme. Too old for it not enough time to simply waste for no reason . You are welcome to believe anything you choose it’s not a stub of my toe or anything if you disagree lol I’m good with it.

You're DEAD wrong! God doesn't even KNOW anyone who doesn't love him, let alone actually love them! God loves those who belong to him; for he is not the God of the dead but of the living.

 

[Rufus]

yeah there’s no offense or anything I’m just saying I’ve never read on the Bible that children are born seperated from God needing “spiritual rebirth “

I’ve read how adults are tempted and sin and seperate themselves from God because they have sinned

But not that little innocent children are just born already separated and spiritually dead “ from God

i believe death passes upon us because we sin not that we’re already born seperate d or condemned . Do you realize what that would mean for the children who pass away before they ever really learn about Jesus ?

i guess it’s a fundamental question are humans born and made wrong ? Or does our sin corrupt our hearts as we partake of it.


I think we die spiritually because of sin and not that we’re born dead spiritually …..

“but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;

and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

So lust -temptation - sin and then resulting in death and needing a new life being condemned as a sinner ….

i don’t think we’re born wrong I think we’re corrupted by the world we dwell in and then die spiritually because of sin

Yeah, all men w/o exception are "born wrong", since all come into this world IN ADAM and, therefore, have Adam's sin imputed to the entire human race. The fact that infants, babies, toddlers, etc. suffer physical death bears witness to this fact, otherwise God would indeed by unjust and unrighteous if he decreed the penalty of sin (death) upon those who are too young to know the difference between good and evil.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You're DEAD wrong! God doesn't even KNOW anyone who doesn't love him, let alone actually love them! God loves those who belong to him; for he is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Again I don’t have any interest in the foolishness

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah, all men w/o exception are "born wrong", since all come into this world IN ADAM and, therefore, have Adam's sin imputed to the entire human race. The fact that infants, babies, toddlers, etc. suffer physical death bears witness to this fact, otherwise God would indeed by unjust and unrighteous if he decreed the penalty of sin (death) upon those who are too young to know the difference between good and evil.

Again probly should find someone else to argue with I’m too old no interest

 

[Magenta]

But they don't leave it at natural inability to believe; they say that God in His grace gives that ability.

Kroogz has been misrepresenting since he entered these convos.

And when being enabled is actually acknowledged, he will characterized as being forced to believe.

Just as others call it being kidnapped against their will, making God an unjust tyrannical monster.

The way free willers choose to act and speak is an abomination bordering on blasphemy.

 

[HeIsHere]

When they consumned the knowledge of good and evil it corrupted man’s flesh

and left us in a situation where no matter what we do evil is always there waiting for an opportunity to draw us away. Through the lusts of our eyes and flesh and our pride of being mankind upon the earth having dominion ect

it’s just my own view and nothing to be taken as more than that but I believe mankind living in a corrupt and wicked world filled with man’s fantasy and lusts all around us is where temptations come from

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


satan exploits our weaknesses and tempts like when Jesus had fasted and was hungry satan attacked his hunger for food trying to get him to break his fast before he was finished and fail the test in the desert.

Our flesh is weak because it was corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Leaving us open to many temptations , through the lusts in our flesh which is what was corrupted. Good and evil became a conflict within mankind because they ate the fruit .

Our problem is tbat both good and evil are trying to fill our heart and mind so there’s an internal conflict leaving us in a bind with death as the outcome

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭

“ my spirit will not always strive with man because he also is flesh “

The spirit is willing , but the flesh is weak “

“Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭14:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit,

and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:9‬ ‭

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:14, 16‬ ‭

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

Learning how to deal with and overcome temptations we face is part of that ^^^process above actually

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Thank you for this, I definitely see this too.. I will reread it more closely again and I do have some questions.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

AMEN to that! One drop of Jesus' shed blood could have efficaciously saved the entire world if He had ordained that! But as it is, God has chosen instead to "play favorites", since he has historically treated men unequally. He treated the Israelities in the wilderness differently with the bronze serpent incident. Even before that, he treated the Hebrews in Egypt differently than he did the Egyptians. And even long before that, He treated Adam and Eve in the Garden differently. God is most definitely a "respecter of persons".

Your great and infallible wisdom concludes
“God is most definitely a "respecter of persons"

The Bible

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is a good example of your thinking v gods word totally opposite conclusions

“for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you should try to learn what the Bible has to say about God and think that stuff …..

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you for this, I definitely see this too.. I will reread it more closely again and I do have some questions.

Questions are always good so are thoughts

 

[Rufus]

Again I don’t have any interest in the foolishness

So, 1Cor 8:3 is foolishness to you...just in the same way the true Gospel also is, right!? Don't you know that God loves only those who love his Son!? And "love" isn't exactly the virtue that characterizes mankind in this lost, dark, dead world, is it?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So, 1Cor 8:3 is foolishness to you...just in the same way the true Gospel also is, right!? Don't you know that God loves only those who love his Son!? And "love" isn't exactly the virtue that characterizes mankind in this lost, dark, dead world, is it?

Naw your behavior and words are foolishness to me and a waste of time

 

[Rufus]

Your great and infallible wisdom concludes
“God is most definitely a "respecter of persons"

The Bible

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is a good example of your thinking v gods word totally opposite conclusions

“for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you should try to learn what the Bible has to say about God and think that stuff …..

I just borrowed a very popular FW phrase and stuck it up the noses of you FWers to sniff on. But if God isn't a respecter of persons, then explain how he treated the Israelites differently in the wilderness, and how he treated the Hebrews in Egypt differently from the Egyptians and how he treated Eve differently from Adam. You need to reconcile Acts 10 with these examples, I just provided.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I just borrowed a very popular FW phrase and stuck it up the noses of you FWers to sniff on. But if God isn't a respecter of persons, then explain how he treated the Israelites differently in the wilderness, and how he treated the Hebrews in Egypt differently from the Egyptians and how he treated Eve differently from Adam. You need to reconcile Acts 10 with these examples, I just provided.

Yeah more foolishness basically lol