Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What does Rom 10:21 have to do with the hypothetical existence of eternal beings?The minds of you FWers are absolutely shot! Cognitive Dissonance reigns supreme in your heart.
Was the Lord holding out His hand to Israel or had the Lord predestined Israel to be severed?
You cannot have a divine determinism severing Israel from the tree of life. And at the same time
have the Lord holding out His hand to Israel to save them.
You can't hold this blatant contradiction in the nature of God, it's madness.
The idea that, "God is love", and then conclude God damns the majority of people to hell, at the same time.
This is ridiculous, Rufus. You have a very sharp contradiction within the nature of God.
This is not good, Rufus.
So you think your lies which flat out contradict scripture is a funny matter? Where in Rom 9 does Paul tell us that God's prescience foresaw Esau's disobedience and this was the reason why God rejected ("hated") Esau?
Again, what does all your gibberish, including your cite of Rom 10, have to do with your crazy theory that all spiritual beings are eternal beings? Connect the dots for me.
My lies lol ….. yes I think some of you guys are funny .
“Where in Rom 9 does Paul tell us that God's prescience foresaw Esau's disobedience and this was the reason why God rejected ("hated") Esau?”
i never said anything about Roman’s 9 so your kind of arguing against a straw man you created from something I said to someone else in response to something they said …..never mentioned Roman’s 9
I was referring to this
“lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.”
Hebrews 12:16-17 KJV
and was talking about the fact that God has foreknowledge
then you began telling me about my lies lol which was funny I thought. Which lies are they though ? Is it a lie that zgod has foreknowledge ? Or that esau sold his birthrite for a bowl of stew ?
Or that God doesn’t have favorites and everyone will be judged the same ? Which “ lies “ are you referring to ?
But none of the passages you quoted means that "every creature" will accept the gospel. Furthermore, Christians should preach the gospel to as many people as we can since we, UNLIKE God, are not omniscient. We have no idea who God's elect are. But God does, and this brings me to the next point.
You evidently missed my 14,604 that shows the absurdity to the idea that God doesn't actually effectuate anyone's salvation, since it's a sinner's "freewill" that ultimately effectuates his own salvation; therefore this all-knowing God only provides opportunities, according to FWers, for "all" to be saved -- even though in eternity God knew with fixed certainty who would believe and who would not. Your god is reduced to a village idiot who is perpetually chasing his own tail, for with all his immutable knowledge He nonetheless proactively offers "all" w/o exception salvific opportunities, even though he knows the vast majority of the world will not believe on him, including exactly who each and every person is who will never accept the gospel truth.
Finally, "all men" in Tit 2 cannot be understood in the distributive sense. The gospel never made it to Asia during Paul's ministry, which means more than a few men died without ever hearing the gospel (Act 16:6). Therefore, "all men" can only mean all w/o distinction.
amen
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:14-16
people should look into that story when Moses made the serpent in the desert and held it up high as God commanded him … everyone was enduring a curse because of thier sin and rebellion of deadly vipers biting and attacking everyone …..they repented and then God provided them the brazen serpent on a pole . Whoever among them when they were bitten if they looked up to the serpent on the pole , tbey would live and not die.
It wasn’t about god picking and choosing favorites and making them able to look to the brazen serpent and live , and not the others he just told them all and whoever listened to his word and responded lived through the terrible curse thier sin brought upon them.
Its really a cool example of the cross
But what you claimed earlier contradicts SCRIPTURE, and I pointed out which specific scripture it contradicts. You basically made a false claim that God's prescience of Esau's earthly life is why He "hated" Esau. AND....your appeal to Heb 12 above doesn't help your case since that specific passage isn't dealing with God's foreknowledge, whereas Rom 8 and 9, with the latter chapter also dealing specifically with Issac's twins.
Again, Your lie is the claim that God's prescience of Esau's actions forms the basis for this twin's rejection.
Matt 13:11 Jesus answered them His disciples, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted"
Christ tells us that we do not have the ability to hear and believe unless it has been granted to us.
Hate to burst your little bubble here but the bronze serpent incident is a great example of God playing "favorites". You cannot see this because you're a careless interpreter who prefers to read your personal presuppositions into passages.
Go back and read Num 21 very slowly and very carefully...if that is even possible for you -- and after you have read it and you think you have a handle on the "bronze serpent" passage, answer this question: Did God command Moses to create the bronze serpent before any of the faithless Israelites had died from snake bites or after many had already died? Then think through the implications of your answer and get back to me so we can talk some more about the FWT view of God that says He's an EOE kind of God.
“But none of the passages you quoted means that "every creature" will accept the gospel. “
again not something I said your arguing with your own mind
“Furthermore, Christians should preach the gospel to as many people as we can since we, UNLIKE God, are not omniscient. We have no idea who God's elect are. But God does, and this brings me to the next point.”
yeah I agree I’m again not saying we should t preach the gospel to everyone lol I’m the one who quoted that we should do everyone can have the opportunity to choose life . I’m saying anyone can be saved If they hear and believe the gospel . So I agree people should share the gospel with everyone.
Gods elect is Jesus tbose who believe in Christ after they hear the gospel become the elect spoken of “ in him “ there are no individual people outside of Christ . selected for salvation and others who aren’t it’s all based on what they do in response to a gods word
God knows us all because he created us all . In the end it’s not going to be secret election but this
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:6-11 NIV
that’s true of all people and why this promise is so imperative
“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,
but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Mark 16:15-16 NIV
notice they aren’t already saved or already condemned ? And it isn’t about gods selection of one and not another but it’s based on whichever of all creatures hear the gospel and respond in faith ?
i believe Gods Will is for everyone to be saved
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4
But we have our own Will and have to accept the offer to save us in the gospel. So God wanting all people to be saved I believe but that is t sayong all people will be saved , they have to hear the gospel and believe to be saved ….or they might instead react like this when they hear it
“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”
2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
“that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
2 Thessalonians 2:
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 NIV
See to say “God wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth “
thats biblical.
To say God isnt being slow to return , he is being patient with us because he doesnt want us to perish but to come to repentance before that day “
is biblical.
to say god is going to judge everyone according to thier deeds through Christ Jesus and the gospel …..is biblical
“The elect” is Jesus to be “the elect” and to have an inheritance from the lord ….is found here in Christ
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
But your windy tome doesn't change the fact that your god merely presents opportunities for men to be saved, since it's man's will that ultimately determines (effectuates) his spiritual, eternal destiny. And that is a totally absurd notion if God in fact is an all-knowing God.
yeah my God is based on the one the scriptures present is the difference …. like the one who wants all men To be saved and to know the truth
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4
So he sent the gospel offering salvation to all creation and said this
“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,
but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Mark 16:15-16 NIV
I can’t help that the scriptures aren’t acceptable to you but “ my God “ is the one presented in the Bible who doesn’t create and work puppets but created free people so he’s trying to teach to choose the good so they don’t die …..
But amazingly some answer him “ but creator why are you telling me to choose good and live ? To listen to you and do what your saying would be “ trusting in my own works to save me “
The reasons to ignore what God told us to do seem endless even “ that’s trusting yourself “
I hear that twilight zone music starting doo doo doo Dee foo fee foodee
But they don't leave it at natural inability to believe; they say that God in His grace gives that ability.
Yes, He does give it, otherwise, salvation wouldn't be by God's grace, but it is by God's grace. Just a few verses to substantiate that doctrine. In no particular order:
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Jhn 10:26-27 KJV]
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
The dead is used differently in the scripture, I am speaking about spiritual death... which is to be separated spiritual from the Creator.
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive;"
Yes agree ALL people are image bearers, yet a baby in not born in fellowship with the creator, that requires a second spiritual birth.
But I absolutely agree many Calvinists some here on this forum have stated God only loves the elect.
The Calvinists insist, without much biblical foundation, that the term "dead" connotes an innate moral inability inherently passed down to every human being as a result of the fall of Adam.”