At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[sawdust]

This is what you originally said:

""You're right, we're not saved by faith only, we are saved by grace working through faith."

My point was that the faith that brought forth grace, and hence, salvation, was Christ's faith, not ours.

Anyway, at this point we're going around in circles so not much point in continuing further but thanks for the
discussion.

Ok, but like I said before, that wasn't the crux of my original post.

I agree we are now going in circles.

peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[Genez]

Before any angels fell?
Before Satan invented lying?

The Lord would simply tell angels something, and they believed Him.
No need to question when they had no concept of lying.

When we have faith?
When given the Gospel...
We are simply accepting that the Lord is not lying.

How could any boast about that?

 

[Kroogz]

Before any angels fell?
Before Satan invented lying?

The Lord would simply tell angels something, and they believed Him.
No need to question when they had no concept of lying.

When we have faith?
When given the Gospel...
We are simply accepting that the Lord is not lying.

How could any boast about that?

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Col 1:23~~
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The calvies boast about their special status/election. And It's equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL. No boasting.

 

[Genez]

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Col 1:23~~
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The calvies boast about their special status/election. And It's equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL. No boasting.

Calvinists insist that God had to drag them into believing.
That runs a close second to the Islamist's approach of getting people who do not want to, to believe

 

[TMS]

Is it at the point of faith? Satan would have you believe that’ faith” is the “end”, when actually, it is the beginning. Is it when we repent? When we actually “confess” Christ seems like a good place

We know Jesus shed His blood in His death on the cross. Romans 6:3, God says, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His DEATH?Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into DEATH that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also walk in newness of life.”

From this scripture, I would say that we come into contact with the blood of Jesus when we are baptized into His death ( where His blood was shed).

The answer is explained in detail if you are willing to ďo the study...

What did God give Israel that was a type or symbol of the true heavenly ministry.

The sacrificial system and the sanctuary.

The high priest and the lamb that was killed. These are all symbols of Christ.

When someone needed to confess a sin they needed to bring an innocent lamb or animal that represented Christ. There blood was collected and taken into the holy place. The blood was painted or spread on differant things....
These are all types of what Jesus is doing today.

The blood is our only hope and it is important to understand it.

 

[Kroogz]

Calvinists insist that God had to drag them into believing.
That runs a close second to the Islamist's approach of getting people who do not want to, to believe

I agree. This is not a "agree to disagree" Subject. The calvies do everything in their power to deter unbelievers from His Gospel.

Their "dragging" is special.

The Lord Jesus Christ made it Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

I could not imagine witnessing to an unbeliever and thinking," This may or may not be for you."

 

[Genez]

I agree. This is not a "agree to disagree" Subject. The calvies do everything in their power to deter unbelievers from His Gospel.

Their "dragging" is special.

The Lord Jesus Christ made it Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

I could not imagine witnessing to an unbeliever and thinking," This may or may not be for you."

What grace performs for us in salvation?
The power of grace will drag down the sin nature. Then step on it to hold it down!

While holding down the sin nature? The very nature that would normally dominate over the soul?
That soul will have been made momentarily free (by grace) of the tyranny of the flesh.

It is in that state of grace that a soul of a person is being made free to make his/ her choice.
Without grace? The flesh would always tyrannize the soul. Never able to believe.

That is why we must be saved by grace!
In that way a soul is made able to be free to consider the Word of God.
If the Word is accepted by that freed soul?
Regeneration takes over......


grace and peace ....

 

[Kroogz]

What grace performs for us in salvation?
The power of grace will drag down the sin nature. Then step on it to hold it down!

While holding down the sin nature? The very nature that would normally dominate over the soul?
That soul will have been made momentarily free (by grace) of the tyranny of the flesh.

It is in that state of grace that a soul of a person is being made free to make his/ her choice.
Without grace? The flesh would always tyrannize the soul. Never able to believe.

That is why we must be saved by grace!
In that way a soul is made able to be free to consider the Word of God.
If the Word is accepted by that freed soul?
Regeneration takes over......


grace and peace ....

Agreed.

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin............That is The Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross and the GRACE He offers to ALL.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”

 

[posthuman]

The power of grace will drag down the sin nature. Then step on it to hold it down!

His grace covers you when you think you've got it held down but inevitably fail regardless.

Adam thought he had made the right decision - just as Eve thought so; just as the pharisees thought, just as the king of Jericho thought.
how different do we we think we really are?

the power is in His inability to fail

 

[Beckworth]

Jesus taught three baptisms, of water, of Spirit and of fire. Jesus underwent all three, baptised with water by John, baptised with the Holy Spirit as He came up out of the water, and baptised with fire/suffering as he went to the cross. While I do agree that Jesus did have the authority to baptise with the Holy Spirit, an ability John the Baptist did not, you have ignored the recorded cases of disciples going through baptism with water in Jesus name, during Jesus' ministry and after His ascension.
If jesus needed to go through water baptism to fulfil all righteousness, and his apostles enjoined water baptism and oversaw the water baptism of converts, why are some Christians enjoining converts not to be water baptised? The Israelites who left Egypt had refused circumcision, and had refused to circumcise their children, and they all fell in the desert. and entered not into that promised rest. It seems very presumptuous of certain Christians to discourage converts from water baptism. Jannes and Jambres also come to mind. The Scribes and Pharisees who refused water baptism and tried to prevent others from taking water baptism also come to mind.

I just want to make a comment on one thing you said concerning the different baptisms. I think the baptism of fire in Matthew 3:11 is a different baptism from the baptism of suffering that Jesus talked about in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50. If you read the context in Matthew 3, especially the verses following verse 11, it seems like The baptism of fire is “hell”. John describes a scene which sounds like judgement. Gathering the wheat ( saved) into His barn and “burning up” (hell) the chaff (lost).

When John talks about the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the baptism of fire, it seems to me he is contrasting the “good and the bad”. The righteous and the wicked. The saved and the lost.

The baptism of suffering was never called a baptism of fire and seems to be something entirely different.

 

[PaulThomson]

I just want to make a comment on one thing you said concerning the different baptisms. I think the baptism of fire in Matthew 3:11 is a different baptism from the baptism of suffering that Jesus talked about in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50. If you read the context in Matthew 3, especially the verses following verse 11, it seems like The baptism of fire is “hell”. John describes a scene which sounds like judgement. Gathering the wheat ( saved) into His barn and “burning up” (hell) the chaff (lost).

When John talks about the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the baptism of fire, it seems to me he is contrasting the “good and the bad”. The righteous and the wicked. The saved and the lost.

The baptism of suffering was never called a baptism of fire and seems to be something entirely different.

Yes, @Beckworth. A few days ago I noticed the same apparent correlation between John the Baptist's comments about gathering wheat and burning chaff in the same passage as baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire. I am strongly sympathetic to your linking the two. But I'm not convinced that hell-fire was in mind, rather than a more immediate judgment and shaming as the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

 

[Beckworth]

To clarify, I was talking about the indwelling which you addressed here.

Thanks for the response!

BTW, I think I've said it before, but I like how you deal with Scripture by taking it as it's stated.

Thank you. That and “context” seem to help clarify most scriptures. I like to let scripture EXPLAIN scriptures, whenever possible.

 

[Beckworth]

Yes, @Beckworth. A few days ago I noticed the same apparent correlation between John the Baptist's comments about gathering wheat and burning chaff in the same passage as baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire. I am strongly sympathetic to your linking the two. But I'm not convinced that hell-fire was in mind, rather than a more immediate judgment and shaming as the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

You may be right. I can see that. I will have to study some more on that. Thanks.

 

[Beckworth]

I’m sorry, but there is no scripture nor anything in the context to even suggest that Jesus was talking about “everyone’s sins had been atoned for on the cross” when He said, “It is finished.” Let scripture explain scripture. Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus said not one thing would pass from the old Jewish law UNTIL ALL BE FULFILLED. And John 17:4 Jesus is praying to the Father and He said, “I have finished the work you have given me to do.”

There were several things that were “finished”. When Jesus died on the cross.
1) The old law was fulfilled; every prophecy about Jesus was fulfilled.
2) The old Jewish law was “finished”. Col. 2:14-17. Hebrews 9:16-17.
3) The work that God gave Jesus to do was “finished”. John 17:4

But there is not ONE scripture THAT SUGGESTS the words of Jesus “IT IS FINISHED ” mean everyone ‘s sins had been attoned for. That is just made up by man. You can’t just ascribed whatever you want to the words of Jesus. While it is true that our sins are atoned for by the blood of Jesus that He shed on the cross, There is no evidence that His words mean what you have ascribed to them.

 

[Beckworth]

I’m sorry, but there is no scripture nor anything in the context to even suggest that Jesus was talking about “everyone’s sins had been atoned for on the cross” when He said, “It is finished.” Let scripture explain scripture. Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus said not one thing would pass from the old Jewish law UNTIL ALL BE FULFILLED. And John 17:4 Jesus is praying to the Father and He said, “I have finished the work you have given me to do.”

There were several things that were “finished”. When Jesus died on the cross.
1) The old law was fulfilled; every prophecy about Jesus was fulfilled.
2) The old Jewish law was “finished”. Col. 2:14-17. Hebrews 9:16-17.
3) The work that God gave Jesus to do was “finished”. John 17:4

But there is not ONE scripture THAT SUGGESTS the words of Jesus “IT IS FINISHED ” mean everyone ‘s sins had been attoned for. That is just made up by man. You can’t just ascribed whatever you want to the words of Jesus. While it is true that our sins are atoned for by the blood of Jesus that He shed on the cross, There is no evidence that His words mean what you have ascribed to them.

This post is in response to Genez’s post # 472.

 

[PaulThomson]

I’m sorry, but there is no scripture nor anything in the context to even suggest that Jesus was talking about “everyone’s sins had been atoned for on the cross” when He said, “It is finished.” Let scripture explain scripture. Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus said not one thing would pass from the old Jewish law UNTIL ALL BE FULFILLED. And John 17:4 Jesus is praying to the Father and He said, “I have finished the work you have given me to do.”

There were several things that were “finished”. When Jesus died on the cross.
1) The old law was fulfilled; every prophecy about Jesus was fulfilled.
2) The old Jewish law was “finished”. Col. 2:14-17. Hebrews 9:16-17.
3) The work that God gave Jesus to do was “finished”. John 17:4

But there is not ONE scripture THAT SUGGESTS the words of Jesus “IT IS FINISHED ” mean everyone ‘s sins had been attoned for. That is just made up by man. You can’t just ascribed whatever you want to the words of Jesus. While it is true that our sins are atoned for by the blood of Jesus that He shed on the cross, There is no evidence that His words mean what you have ascribed to them.

And one only needs to go back two verses to see that John is most likely referring to your first option.

Jhn 19:28 After this(Μετὰ τοῦτο), knowing (εἰδὼς, perfect active participle, "having realised") Jesus (ὁ Ἰησοῦς) that (ὅτι) all things (πάντα) now (ἤδη) He has finished/completed (τετέλεσται, tetelestai, perfect active indicative 3rd person singular), so that (ἵνα) might be fulfilled (τελειωθῇ, aorist passive subjunctive) the scripture ( ἡ γραφή), He says (λέγει) I thirst. (Διψῶ).

My own paraphrase of the Greek text -
After this, Jesus, knowing that He has completed (tetelestai) all things - in order that now the scripture might be fulfilled - He says, "I am thirsty."

Jhn 19:30
When therefore (ὅτε οὖν) He had received (ἔλαβεν, aorist active indicative) the vinegar (τὸ ὄξος) Jesus (ὁ Ἰησοῦς) said (εἶπεν) , "It has finished (Τετέλεσται, tetelestai, perfect active indicative 3rd person singular); and after bowing (καὶ κλίνας, aorist active participle) the head (τὴν κεφαλὴν), and handed over (παρέδωκεν, aorist active indicative) the spirit/breath (τὸ πνεῦμα).

My own paraphrase of the Greek text -

When, therefore, He had received the vinegar, Jesus said, "It (i.e. the life of the Messiah, as prophesied in the law and Prophets) has finished"; and after bowing His head He handed over His spirit.

 

[sawdust]

I’m sorry, but there is no scripture nor anything in the context to even suggest that Jesus was talking about “everyone’s sins had been atoned for on the cross” when He said, “It is finished.”

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

If He didn't atone for all of us on the Cross then where and when? That was His job, to save the world from their sin.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.


2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[GWH]

The only problem with this is that there is no scripture that even “hints” of this. The best scripture that explains it is Roman’s 6:3-4. Verse 5 says when we are baptized into His death, we are UNITED with Him in His death. That’s where the blood is—in His death. That is the only place we come into contact with His blood, where it can be applied to us. God says “IF” you are united with Him in His death, you will also be like Him in His resurrection. Verse 6 says then we are “crucified “ with Him and that KILLS the body of sin and it is done away. We are raised to walk in a NEW LIFE! Verse 3. Only by “dying” with Christ in baptism will we be able to “live” with Him verse 8. Verse 17 says that they had been slaves of sin, but after they OBEYED the form of doctrine that he delivered, they were SET FREE from sin and became servants of righteousness. Verse 18. This is in harmony with every other scripture on baptism in the Bible this side of the cross.

Again, yes, and another Scripture indicating that blood means death is Matt. 26:2 & 28.
Christ's atoning death/blood or salvation occurs at the moment of repentance/conversion/kerygmatic faith/confession of Christ as Lord/Spirit baptism. (Acts 16:31, John 3:16, etc.)

 

[Genez]

I’m sorry, but there is no scripture nor anything in the context to even suggest that Jesus was talking about “everyone’s sins had been atoned for on the cross” when He said, “It is finished.” Let scripture explain scripture. Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus said not one thing would pass from the old Jewish law UNTIL ALL BE FULFILLED. And John 17:4 Jesus is praying to the Father and He said, “I have finished the work you have given me to do.”

There were several things that were “finished”. When Jesus died on the cross.
1) The old law was fulfilled; every prophecy about Jesus was fulfilled.
2) The old Jewish law was “finished”. Col. 2:14-17. Hebrews 9:16-17.
3) The work that God gave Jesus to do was “finished”. John 17:4

But there is not ONE scripture THAT SUGGESTS the words of Jesus “IT IS FINISHED ” mean everyone ‘s sins had been attoned for. That is just made up by man. You can’t just ascribed whatever you want to the words of Jesus. While it is true that our sins are atoned for by the blood of Jesus that He shed on the cross, There is no evidence that His words mean what you have ascribed to them.

Read slowly.

Then tell yourself what it was you just read.
And, if it does not agree with what you have been clinging to?
Repent...

Repent means to change one's thinking on a matter.


Now... slowly.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 John 2:2​

Meaning?

He was the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world’s.

You want to continue to fight it?
Just accept it. It is faith when you do.

Trust God.

It does not have to make sense to your limited understanding now.
You simply need more knowledge of truth before it will.

grace and peace ................

 

[Beckworth]

This speaks volumes about the faith alone regeneration theology movement.

Your hermeneutics is determined by your theology.

Thank you for your honesty.

Let’s remember that the Bible was written in such a way that ALL people can understand it WITHOIT having to have a knowledge of the Greek or the Hebrew. It was written so that the “common” man could know exactly what God wants. No one with only a basic education of reading and writing would ever think that Acts 2:38 means “because of the remission of sins” Instead of “in order to receive the remission of sins.” God said the common people heard Jesus gladly. I’m pretty sure they had no problem understanding what he meant.