Prophesied by Joel...

[Wansvic]

Ummm....while the book of Acts does record that all seemed to speak in tongues, Paul's letter(s) to the Corinthians who badly needed instruction, that not all will speak in tongues. Why do you keep insisting otherwise?

So if you do believe 'the word of God', then why do you change it to suit your own interpretation? I have the gift of tongues so my objections to some of what you write has nothing to do with whether or not I believe the gifts are still operative. I see how you change the wording in small little ways and this is a harmful practice.

It creates even more friction when someone objects to your criteria about the infilling of the Holy Spirit and that is totally your doing with regards to this thread.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we first accept Christ. We do not automatically receive gifts with no knowledge of even knowing about them. Times are different. When Acts was written, people were new to the faith and there were not myriad beliefs around or people who are cessationists. No good can come out of telling people they are not saved if they do not speak in tongues.

The Bible says we are saved thought the sacrifice of Jesus...NOT blabbing in tongues.

You stated we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we first accept Christ.

The scripture reference:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"

What word of truth involves the Holy Spirit of promise? It was presented by Peter in Jerusalem after Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. And, as Jesus prophesied the gospel of salvation continues to be carried into all nations. (Luke 24:47) Some accept it, while others do not.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. " Acts 2:4
"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:33

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine..." Acts 2:36-42

 

[CS1]

You stated we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we first accept Christ.

The scripture reference:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"

What word of truth involves the Holy Spirit of promise? It was presented by Peter in Jerusalem after Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. And, as Jesus prophesied the gospel of salvation continues to be carried into all nations. (Luke 24:47) Some accept it, while others do not.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. " Acts 2:4
"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:33

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine..." Acts 2:36-42

what is the point you're making? I want to be sure I understand you.

 

[ocean]

You stated we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we first accept Christ.

The scripture reference:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"

What word of truth involves the Holy Spirit of promise? It was presented by Peter in Jerusalem after Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. And, as Jesus prophesied the gospel of salvation continues to be carried into all nations. (Luke 24:47) Some accept it, while others do not.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. " Acts 2:4
"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:33

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine..." Acts 2:36-42

My exchange with you seems to be difficult for you to handle. You have some ideas that I do not see in scripture, including everyone must speak in tongues. That, is not in scripture along with a few other things you try to pass off as scriptural.

I know what you believe. The problem is, it cannot be found in the Bible. God's word tells us we are sealed by the Holy Spirit upon accepting Christ as I showed you in another post...the verse and the reference.

This is not about water baptism and not about repentance. You are a avoiding the fact you were wrong about Paul saying he desired everyone to speak in tongues. I have posted that verse and reference several times now.

It seems you are not accepting scripture when you tell everyone else to do so.

 

[Wansvic]

what is the point you're making? I want to be sure I understand you.

The point is being sealed with the Holy Ghost of promise occurs when people believe and obey the gospel of salvation first presented at Pentecost.

 

[ocean]

what is the point you're making? I want to be sure I understand you.

Wansvic refuses to admit he was wrong when it was stated by them that Paul never said he desired that all should speak in tongues. So from there, he has gone in all directions. Anything but the actual question of whether or not Paul said that but he did say that as scripture provided has shown.

I don't know about you, but I would be willing to lean towards acknowledgement that you would admit it if you were in error. I have changed what I believed over the years as truth overcame error but it seems some people in this forum would prefer to just remain in error rather than have anything they present as being wrong, even when absolute concrete proof of the error is shown. Certainly some things remain as debate, but some things really do not or should not.

 

[Wansvic]

My exchange with you seems to be difficult for you to handle. You have some ideas that I do not see in scripture, including everyone must speak in tongues. That, is not in scripture along with a few other things you try to pass off as scriptural.

I know what you believe. The problem is, it cannot be found in the Bible. God's word tells us we are sealed by the Holy Spirit upon accepting Christ as I showed you in another post...the verse and the reference.

This is not about water baptism and not about repentance. You are a avoiding the fact you were wrong about Paul saying he desired everyone to speak in tongues. I have posted that verse and reference several times now.

It seems you are not accepting scripture when you tell everyone else to do so.

The only problem I have in dealing with you is your rudeness. People can and do disagree without the need to resort to personal attacks.

I am not convinced Paul is conveying what you believe concerning tongues. It is my understanding that Paul's comment pertains to when and where prayer in tongues and the public gift of tongues is acceptable. When taken in context verses 4 and 5 reveal this:

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." 1 Cor. 14:4-5


Rightly dividing the word of truth indicates the manifestation of tongues serve different purposes:

1. Visable confirmation that the Holy Spirit had come to dwell inside individuals. 100% had this experience. (Acts 2:4, 33; 10:43:48, 19:1-7; 8:12-18 implied) The gift of interpretation was not in operation.
2. Personal communication between one's renewed spirit and God's Holy Spirit. No man understands what is spoken. The experience results in personal edification without the individual knowing what God has relayed directly to their spirit. (1 Cor. 14:2)
3. Presentation of a direct message from God for the edification of those in the congregation. Someone of God's choosing interprets the message through the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor. 12)

 

[Wansvic]

The only problem I have in dealing with you is your rudeness. People can and do disagree without the need to resort to personal attacks.

I am not convinced Paul is conveying what you believe concerning tongues. It is my understanding that Paul's comment pertains to when and where prayer in tongues and the public gift of tongues is acceptable. When taken in context verses 4 and 5 reveal this:

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." 1 Cor. 14:4-5


Rightly dividing the word of truth indicates the manifestation of tongues serve different purposes:

1. Visable confirmation that the Holy Spirit had come to dwell inside individuals. 100% had this experience. (Acts 2:4, 33; 10:43:48, 19:1-7; 8:12-18 implied) The gift of interpretation was not in operation.
2. Personal communication between one's renewed spirit and God's Holy Spirit. No man understands what is spoken. The experience results in personal edification without the individual knowing what God has relayed directly to their spirit. (1 Cor. 14:2)
3. Presentation of a direct message from God for the edification of those in the congregation. Someone of God's choosing interprets the message through the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor. 12)

For clarification not all are used to present a message in unknown tongues. (#3)

 

[ocean]

The only problem I have in dealing with you is your rudeness. People can and do disagree without the need to resort to personal attacks.

I am not convinced Paul is conveying what you believe concerning tongues. It is my understanding that Paul's comment pertains to when and where prayer in tongues and the public gift of tongues is acceptable. When taken in context verses 4 and 5 reveal this:

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." 1 Cor. 14:4-5

Nah. I don't believe that is the only problem you have. I am not rude. I just don't pansy around people who do their best to manipulate others and have the opinion that they are somehow special. I have met a few people on CC with those personality traits...well you would be #4 actually and they all call me rude.

I don't care what you are convinced of other than you have some personal 'ought' against me and thank you for making it public rather than just address in a pm but that is what people with your personality trait do. It is formerly known as 'bullying' and an attempt to get me to somehow think I need to apologize for not letting go of the fact you are disagreeing with scripture.

You are still wrong; still trying to avoid the fact you disagree with scripture and now trying to say I am personally attacking.

I guess I just don't care about the opinions of people who refuse to acknowledge their belligerence and accuse others of what they do themselves.

Aren't you the person who says if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved and don't you also say that water baptism washes away sin? Yeah that's you. I suppose that is also a personal attack?

 

[ocean]

For the record, experience is not the be all and end all of being a believer. If a person does not have the same experience as someone who makes a big fuss about it, that DOES NOT mean that they are not good enough or maybe not even saved. We have people in this forum who seem to think their 'experience' defines their Christianity.

News flash. If your Christianity is dependent on your 'experiences' you have a weak faith that just might fail you if that is your criteria. I have had 'experiences' and probably most believers have. That may happen, but the down to earth day to day life of the believer is still by faith even when you are not on a 'high'.

Renewing your mind, which is what we are told to do, does not consist of good feelings or spiritual highs. It is a daily commitment to following Christ and slugging it out with your own self in a desire to actually become that believer that is consistent. God's desire is that we become like His Son and that does NOT mean everyone is going to love us and it does not mean our life is going to be perfect or without any challenge.

Speaking in tongues does not save you. Baptism does not save. ONLY belief in the sacrifice of Jesus and His shed blood saves you.

 

[ocean]

I am not convinced Paul is conveying what you believe concerning tongues. It is my understanding that Paul's comment pertains to when and where prayer in tongues and the public gift of tongues is acceptable. When taken in context verses 4 and 5 reveal this:

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." 1 Cor. 14:4-5

At the risk of being 'rude' again I will address the above from your post.

Yes, Paul is addressing error regarding public meetings and the use of spiritual gifts. That does not change the fact he states he wishes or desires that ALL would speak in tongues. For him to say that, it means all were not capable of speaking in tongues. It also means he understands the usefulness of the gift but wants the people at Corinth to understand that even though it is a spiritual gift, it still needs to be expressed within what is proper use of the gift.

It is illogical to say that Paul stating he wishes all would speak in tongues means anything other than everyone does not have that gift. If you state otherwise, then it comes to mean he expects everyone in a meeting to exercise the gift of tongues that everyone must have.

Oh I know and have read that you believe everyone should have that gift based on the book of Acts but by the time Corinthians was written, the church (meaning believers) the church had long passed inception and moved on to Gentiles being saved and receiving spiritual gifts.

Again, you have a few beliefs that you have presented, such as baptism saves or washes away sin and everyone must speak in tongues that are not found in scripture. Go ahead and consider that rude for me saying so and call it a personal attack, but, unless you have changed your mind, those things are a part of your belief system.

The fact Paul addresses tongues by saying he wishes all would speak in tongues (obviously not all at once in meeting since he is already addressing that behavior as wrong) expresses his understanding (and I can certainly back it up personally) of the usefulness of the gift. He also states we should not forbid tongues.

Not particularly difficult to understand I would think.

 

[CS1]

The point is being sealed with the Holy Ghost of promise occurs when people believe and obey the gospel of salvation first presented at Pentecost.

OK, Yes, that is correct. Those who have come under conviction of the Holy Spirit at the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ surrender, repent, and receive Salvation, and the Holy Spirit comes into the saved person. I have no issue with that I see that in the word of God.


Yet those who were empowered by the Holy Spirit and spoke in Tongues on the day of Pentacost were already saved,

 

[CS1]

At the risk of being 'rude' again I will address the above from your post.

Yes, Paul is addressing error regarding public meetings and the use of spiritual gifts. That does not change the fact he states he wishes or desires that ALL would speak in tongues. For him to say that, it means all were not capable of speaking in tongues. It also means he understands the usefulness of the gift but wants the people at Corinth to understand that even though it is a spiritual gift, it still needs to be expressed within what is proper use of the gift.

It is illogical to say that Paul stating he wishes all would speak in tongues means anything other than everyone does not have that gift. If you state otherwise, then it comes to mean he expects everyone in a meeting to exercise the gift of tongues that everyone must have.

Oh I know and have read that you believe everyone should have that gift based on the book of Acts but by the time Corinthians was written, the church (meaning believers) the church had long passed inception and moved on to Gentiles being saved and receiving spiritual gifts.

Again, you have a few beliefs that you have presented, such as baptism saves or washes away sin and everyone must speak in tongues that are not found in scripture. Go ahead and consider that rude for me saying so and call it a personal attack, but, unless you have changed your mind, those things are a part of your belief system.

The fact Paul addresses tongues by saying he wishes all would speak in tongues (obviously not all at once in meeting since he is already addressing that behavior as wrong) expresses his understanding (and I can certainly back it up personally) of the usefulness of the gift. He also states we should not forbid tongues.

Not particularly difficult to understand I would think.

I would like to say humbly m that 1corinthains was addressed to a church setting or fellowship,

 

[Wansvic]

Nah. I don't believe that is the only problem you have. I am not rude. I just don't pansy around people who do their best to manipulate others and have the opinion that they are somehow special. I have met a few people on CC with those personality traits...well you would be #4 actually and they all call me rude.

I don't care what you are convinced of other than you have some personal 'ought' against me and thank you for making it public rather than just address in a pm but that is what people with your personality trait do. It is formerly known as 'bullying' and an attempt to get me to somehow think I need to apologize for not letting go of the fact you are disagreeing with scripture.

You are still wrong; still trying to avoid the fact you disagree with scripture and now trying to say I am personally attacking.

I guess I just don't care about the opinions of people who refuse to acknowledge their belligerence and accuse others of what they do themselves.

Aren't you the person who says if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved and don't you also say that water baptism washes away sin? Yeah that's you. I suppose that is also a personal attack?

You may believe whatever you like about me. But thinking something does not make it so. And you were and continue to be rude. Immediately after stating you are not rude you accuse me of thinking I am "Somehow special" Wow, you are so off. The only special one is God Almighty. And it is He that has tasked believers with sharing the truth in love. And that's exactly what I am doing, attempting to help people not manipulate them.

And for the record, I did not express opinions but shared scripture that evidences the truth concerning the essential elements of the NT rebirth. Of which, 100% of the people filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues and remission of sin takes place upon obedience to the NT water baptism command. Clearly, these are things you do not agree with and that's ok. Your walk is between you and God, as is mine.

Lastly, I was not, nor am I, fishing for an apology; it is not wanted or needed. My hope was that you might actually examine yourself because everyone will give an account to God for every idle word spoken.

 

[ocean]

I would like to say humbly m that 1corinthains was addressed to a church setting or fellowship,

Yes as was II Corinthians. Paul also states: Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? I Cor. 12:30

and this, in Romans:

We have different gifts according to the grace given us. If one’s gift is prophecy, let him use it in proportion to his faith; / if it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; / if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is giving, let him give generously; if it is leading, let him lead with diligence; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Romans 12: 6-8

and other scriptures as well

 

[Blain]

You may believe whatever you like about me. But thinking something does not make it so. And you were and continue to be rude. Immediately after stating you are not rude you accuse me of thinking I am "Somehow special" Wow, you are so off. The only special one is God Almighty. And it is He that has tasked believers with sharing the truth in love. And that's exactly what I am doing, attempting to help people not manipulate them.

And for the record, I did not express opinions but shared scripture that evidences the truth concerning the essential elements of the NT rebirth. Of which, 100% of the people filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues and remission of sin takes place upon obedience to the NT water baptism command. Clearly, these are things you do not agree with and that's ok. Your walk is between you and God, as is mine.

Lastly, I was not, nor am I, fishing for an apology; it is not wanted or needed. My hope was that you might actually examine yourself because everyone will give an account to God for every idle word spoken.

They have a habbit of acting this way me and ocean had the same issues your having a bit ago being rude making false accusations saying things about me that isn't true the works it is best not to engage if they treat you this way it can be exhausting

 

[ocean]

You may believe whatever you like about me. But thinking something does not make it so. And you were and continue to be rude. Immediately after stating you are not rude you accuse me of thinking I am "Somehow special" Wow, you are so off. The only special one is God Almighty. And it is He that has tasked believers with sharing the truth in love. And that's exactly what I am doing, attempting to help people not manipulate them.

And for the record, I did not express opinions but shared scripture that evidences the truth concerning the essential elements of the NT rebirth. Of which, 100% of the people filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues and remission of sin takes place upon obedience to the NT water baptism command. Clearly, these are things you do not agree with and that's ok. Your walk is between you and God, as is mine.

Lastly, I was not, nor am I, fishing for an apology; it is not wanted or needed. My hope was that you might actually examine yourself because everyone will give an account to God for every idle word spoken.

How do you explain
Paul also states: Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? I Cor. 12:30

It cannot be stated clearer that Paul himself acknowledged ALL do not speak in tongues. Yet you continue to state they should as evidence of being filled with Holy Spirit.

At this point it is safe to say you disagree with Paul, what he wrote and is now included in the cannon of the book we call the Bible.

 

[Wansvic]

...

Yet those who were empowered by the Holy Spirit and spoke in Tongues on the day of Pentacost were already saved,

You and I have debated this issue previously. We don't see eye to eye on this point.

Jesus prophesied that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name to all nations BEGINNING in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) Note the connection to the NT water baptism in His name-there is no record of anyone being baptized this way until the command was given at Pentecost. Peter presented the requirements associated with the NT rebirth as belief in Jesus, repentance, water baptism in His name for remission of sin and the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. His listeners believed his message. Those who obeyed were added to the church. (Acts 2:4-42) That reality was confirmed over and over in the word. And, I see no evidence that anything has changed. Some believe it and some do not. I share this in hopes others will come to see it, not to force it upon people.

 

[ocean]

They have a habbit of acting this way me and ocean had the same issues your having a bit ago being rude making false accusations saying things about me that isn't true the works it is best not to engage if they treat you this way it can be exhausting

The rudeness I suffered from with you, was saying I do not think all those demonic stories you relate are believable and I will add to that by saying I do not believe the Holy Spirit is inducing these things in your life.

I made no false accusation about you whatsoever. Jesus died once and we have given to us all that we need to overcome the devil yet you expressly state you continue to battle with demons and go on and on about the particulars. Pardon me, but I don't think anyone needs to relate all the details (if true and can be with people who need deliverance or are involved with the occult etc) except to a counselor, pastor or someone capable of helping them exit such things because it is NOT the will of God that someone continually has this type of experience.

You told me I had no experience with demons and you asked if I had ever even seen one. I did not answer you because I don't fool around with those things and really, do actually want help? or do you just want to talk about it and how you battle demons and they are afraid of you. (so why do they keep on coming at you?) You should NOT be continuing to have all these demonic problems and scary dreams you relate. Where in scripture do we read Jesus ever left someone to suffer at the hands of the devil?

You just had to get another dig but it shows who you are. I am not bothering with you anymore due to your attitude and insistence that Jesus personally jumped on a demon for you (show me in scripture where we can expect that and I will show you where we are given instructions on how to deal with the demonic and it never included Jesus personally jumping on demons and sending them to hell on your behalf)

I doubt that no one has ever called you out on it before, but you just tell them they do not love God like you do etc etc. smh

 

[Blain]

The rudeness I suffered from with you, was saying I do not think all those demonic stories you relate are believable and I will add to that by saying I do not believe the Holy Spirit is inducing these things in your life.

I made no false accusation about you whatsoever. Jesus died once and we have given to us all that we need to overcome the devil yet you expressly state you continue to battle with demons and go on and on about the particulars. Pardon me, but I don't think anyone needs to relate all the details (if true and can be with people who need deliverance or are involved with the occult etc) except to a counselor, pastor or someone capable of helping them exit such things because it is NOT the will of God that someone continually has this type of experience.

You told me I had no experience with demons and you asked if I had ever even seen one. You need help Blain. You should NOT be continuing to have all these demonic problems and scary dreams you relate. Where in scripture do we read Jesus ever left someone to suffer at the hands of the devil?

You just had to get another dig but it shows who you are. I am not bothering with you anymore due to your attitude and insistence that Jesus personally jumped on a demon for you (show me in scripture where we can expect that and I will show you where we are given instructions on how to deal with the demonic and it never included Jesus personally jumping on demons and sending them to hell on your behalf)

I doubt that no one has ever called you out on it before, but you just tell them they do not love God like you do etc etc. smh

Show me how I was rude and I will apologize but you talk a lot about things about others that isn't true without even examining your own self, everyone else can see it in you you seem to be the only one who can't or maybe refuse to. my post to @Wansvic was not to take a job at you but to warn about engaging with you when you treat people this way. as for the whole demonic thing again it doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not you aren't me you weren't there and you have no evidence to disprove it either only assumptions and accusations.
not that it matters of course I have no need to prove it or even talk about it with you because it is of little importance but you need to stop being rude and making false accusations against people it is not what we are called to do or be as believers you xcan disagree with someone you can even dislike them but treat them with respect and love as we are tasught to do by Christ or did you forget that part in your walk?

 

[ocean]

God designed water baptism for the remission of sin. It is contingent upon having first placed one's trust in Jesus. Jesus made this clear in Mark 16:15-16.

Wansvic believes water baptism washes away sin. So, he believes Jesus sacrifice needs some help from us.