At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[studier]

I'd love to hear your thoughts, based on your analysis of this "justification" concept in Romans and elsewhere. In my understanding, it's a mostly unfamiliar way of saying-- "righteous by declaration" --rather than by some act of righteousness (i.e. baptism). That is, it's a concept whereby a person is "considered righteous" even if and when they are not acting in a righteous manner at all times. @PaulThomson points to the example of Abraham, and that's a good one. The life of his grandson Jacob is another. David- a third.

I'm just in the process of reviewing justification again for the umpteenth time in part because of the continued controversies re: James' justification by works and in part based upon the different ways Abraham's credited righteousness is discussed by Paul and James.

@PaulThomson tends to take a look at Scripture apart from traditions and well into the Greek grammar, so his perspectives interest me. The various traditions each think they have it all worked out and are mostly in conflict with one another on many topics. So, I'm constantly reviewing many topics. At the moment justification is one of them and I don't have much I can spell out at the moment other than I'm finding some language issues in Rom3-5 that are of interest.

 

[MrE]

I'm just in the process of reviewing justification again for the umpteenth time in part because of the continued controversies re: James' justification by works and in part based upon the different ways Abraham's credited righteousness is discussed by Paul and James.

@PaulThomson tends to take a look at Scripture apart from traditions and well into the Greek grammar, so his perspectives interest me. The various traditions each think they have it all worked out and are mostly in conflict with one another on many topics. So, I'm constantly reviewing many topics. At the moment justification is one of them and I don't have much I can spell out at the moment other than I'm finding some language issues in Rom3-5 that are of interest.

Yes, it's interesting to me too. Reading Romans again this morning, it seems more like "justification" refers more to "unjustified" in practice. Not deserved. Credited, rather than owed, and a gift given/received rather than something earned by any works.

I'll have to look again at how James disagrees, if he does.

 

[PaulThomson]

Is credited righteousness, justification?

N.T. Wright makes a compelling case in His book Justification, that Paul considered justification to be the OT concept of faithfulness to a covenant, and Wright shows how Paul uses examples of covenantal faithfulness in the OT to explain NT righteousness/justification/dikaiOsunE.

He also points out that as a legal term (which many theological systems limit justification to being), it does not legally imply that one is actually innocent of the crime, nor that one is actually a moral person, but only that the court, taking into account ALL the legal facts, has found in your favour over the issue being litigated. Nor does it attribute anything of the judge's moral character or abilities to the one pronounced justified.

He also points out that justification is just one essential aspect of many in the process of salvation, much like a steering wheel is one essential part of a car. However, he says, in the eyes of many justification has become identified with the whole of salvation, much like one might foolishly identify a car with its essential steering wheel, and call the car a wheel, subsuming all aspects of the car into one specific part of the car. He says this is a theological error. And I agree with him there.

Is credited righteousness, justification?
As a legal term, justification means being released by the court from any legal consequences due an alleged crime because either the prosecution has not gathered evidence and presented it properly, or the evidence of guilt is compelling but the judge considers that there are mitigating circumstances that allow him/her to legally waive punishing the crime and legally waive adding it to one's record. So, as a legal term justification, when conferred, is always credited/reckoned by the judge.


If one regards righteousness as covenant faithfulness (in Paul's mind), the question becomes,
" Is being credited with, or being reckoned as having, covenant faithfulness the same thing in Paul's mind as being justified ? I would say, "Yes". God arbitrates that I have met the covenantal requirements, and so He acquits me.

 

[PaulThomson]

You're absolutely right to explore the distinction between John’s water baptism and Christ’s baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire—a key development in the New Testament. The New Testament (N.T.) presents both, but it also shows a movement from water baptism to a deeper, Spirit-filled baptism in Christ. Let's examine this using Scripture only.

Jesus taught three baptisms, of water, of Spirit and of fire. Jesus underwent all three, baptised with water by John, baptised with the Holy Spirit as He came up out of the water, and baptised with fire/suffering as he went to the cross. While I do agree that Jesus did have the authority to baptise with the Holy Spirit, an ability John the Baptist did not, you have ignored the recorded cases of disciples going through baptism with water in Jesus name, during Jesus' ministry and after His ascension.
If jesus needed to go through water baptism to fulfil all righteousness, and his apostles enjoined water baptism and oversaw the water baptism of converts, why are some Christians enjoining converts not to be water baptised? The Israelites who left Egypt had refused circumcision, and had refused to circumcise their children, and they all fell in the desert. and entered not into that promised rest. It seems very presumptuous of certain Christians to discourage converts from water baptism. Jannes and Jambres also come to mind. The Scribes and Pharisees who refused water baptism and tried to prevent others from taking water baptism also come to mind.

 

[PaulThomson]

.If one regards righteousness as covenant faithfulness (in Paul's mind), the question becomes,
" Is being credited with, or being reckoned as having, covenant faithfulness the same thing in Paul's mind as being justified ? I would say,
"Yes". God arbitrates that I have met the covenantal requirements, and so He acquits me.

Maybe, when regarding righteousness as covenantal faithfulness, that last line would be better put as ,

"Yes". God arbitrates that I have met the covenantal requirements, and so He accepts me

 

[studier]

Maybe, when regarding righteousness as covenantal faithfulness, that last line would be better put as ,

"Yes". God arbitrates that I have met the covenantal requirements, and so He accepts me

When He initially credited Abraham righteousness or sometime thereafter?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus taught three baptisms, of water, of Spirit and of fire. Jesus underwent all three, baptised with water by John, baptised with the Holy Spirit as He came up out of the water, and baptised with fire/suffering as he went to the cross. While I do agree that Jesus did have the authority to baptise with the Holy Spirit, an ability John the Baptist did not, you have ignored the recorded cases of disciples going through baptism with water in Jesus name, during Jesus' ministry and after His ascension.
If jesus needed to go through water baptism to fulfil all righteousness, and his apostles enjoined water baptism and oversaw the water baptism of converts, why are some Christians enjoining converts not to be water baptised? The Israelites who left Egypt had refused circumcision, and had refused to circumcise their children, and they all fell in the desert. and entered not into that promised rest. It seems very presumptuous of certain Christians to discourage converts from water baptism. Jannes and Jambres also come to mind. The Scribes and Pharisees who refused water baptism and tried to prevent others from taking water baptism also come to mind.

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptized… in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, “

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: ( he Jesus died for our sins ) that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-7‬ ‭

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because Jesus n whom we are getting baptized died for our sins and was raised up for our justification .” Water” baptism is for remission of sins in jesus name the holy spirit is what Jesus promised his disciples who continued on believing after he left when John said this

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬l

It was a prophecy fuflilled here

“…but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. ( Holy Ghost )

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭

afew days later what John and Jesus foretold happens

“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. ( fire ) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, ( spirit ) and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m be of the first things oeter does after he preaches is offer baptism for remission of sins . He does it here also for gentile believers commanding baptism in water in Jesus name

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. ( spirit )

……Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

johns speech referencing baptism of the spirit was about Jesus ascending to heaven and sending the Holy Ghost as he promised he’s done it Peter explained this just before commanding baptism for remission of sins

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those he said would be baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus , now had been and the spirit has been shed forth to all who believe now. The tongues of fire were about the apostles Jesus annointed witnesses the spirit is gods promise to all believers

 

[Adino]

Is it at the point of faith? Satan would have you believe that’ faith” is the “end”, when actually, it is the beginning. Is it when we repent? When we actually “confess” Christ seems like a good place

We know Jesus shed His blood in His death on the cross. Romans 6:3, God says, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His DEATH?Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into DEATH that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also walk in newness of life.”

From this scripture, I would say that we come into contact with the blood of Jesus when we are baptized into His death ( where His blood was shed).

This is in perfect harmony with what Ananias tells Saul in Acts 22:16–“ And now, what are you waiting for? Arise, and be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.”

Before the saved person is saved.

Two things to consider:

1. God is not bound by time. His existence is eternal, not temporal, so nothing we experience with the passage of time in our salvation is applicable to God. Nothing. It is not even accurate to say He has already saved those He is going to save because the "already" and "going to" are meaningless in eternity. Those saved ARE saved. Period.
2. When asking anything about the so called "ordo salutis," it's important to realize salvation from the temproal viewpoint is not linear or wholly sequential. Many aspects of salvation overlap so it is foolishness to ask which overlapping or co-occurring condition started first (or ended first). Justification, for example, occurs at least three ways (by the cross, by the blood, and by faith). The cross occurred looonng before anyone in the New Testament believed anything salvific.

Here's another way to approach this. In John 11:25 Jesus stated he is the resurrection and the life. Jesus did not state he will be the resurrection. He stated he is the resurrection, and he made that statement before he'd even died, much less been raised from the dead. He is making an ontological statement, a statement about his nature. There has never been a point anywhere in time or space, any time or place in creation when he was not, ir not, or will not be the resurrection. The resurrection is who and what is Jesus.

Since there's no salvation apart from that resurrection..... the matter of salvation is not temporal from God's point of view.


Temporally speaking, there may have been a point when you or I were not saved. However, from God's eternal perspective our salvation was an already accomplished fact of creation, and already accomplished fact or His will and His purpose. People were reconciled to God through the blood of His Son without their even knowing it.

 

[PaulThomson]

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptized… in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, “

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: ( he Jesus died for our sins ) that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-7‬ ‭

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because Jesus n whom we are getting baptized died for our sins and was raised up for our justification .” Water” baptism is for remission of sins in jesus name the holy spirit is what Jesus promised his disciples who continued on believing after he left when John said this

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬l

It was a prophecy fuflilled here

“…but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. ( Holy Ghost )

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭

afew days later what John and Jesus foretold happens

“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. ( fire ) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, ( spirit ) and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m be of the first things oeter does after he preaches is offer baptism for remission of sins . He does it here also for gentile believers commanding baptism in water in Jesus name

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. ( spirit )

……Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

johns speech referencing baptism of the spirit was about Jesus ascending to heaven and sending the Holy Ghost as he promised he’s done it Peter explained this just before commanding baptism for remission of sins

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those he said would be baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus , now had been and the spirit has been shed forth to all who believe now. The tongues of fire were about the apostles Jesus annointed witnesses the spirit is gods promise to all believers

 

[PaulThomson]

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptized… in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, “

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: ( he Jesus died for our sins ) that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-7‬ ‭

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because Jesus n whom we are getting baptized died for our sins and was raised up for our justification .” Water” baptism is for remission of sins in jesus name the holy spirit is what Jesus promised his disciples who continued on believing after he left when John said this

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬l

It was a prophecy fuflilled here

“…but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. ( Holy Ghost )

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭

afew days later what John and Jesus foretold happens

“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. ( fire ) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, ( spirit ) and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m be of the first things oeter does after he preaches is offer baptism for remission of sins . He does it here also for gentile believers commanding baptism in water in Jesus name

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. ( spirit )

……Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

johns speech referencing baptism of the spirit was about Jesus ascending to heaven and sending the Holy Ghost as he promised he’s done it Peter explained this just before commanding baptism for remission of sins

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those he said would be baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus , now had been and the spirit has been shed forth to all who believe now. The tongues of fire were about the apostles Jesus annointed witnesses the spirit is gods promise to all believers

Which baptism was Jesus referring to here?

Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

 

[MrE]

Which baptism was Jesus referring to here?

Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Well it can't be referring to his water baptism of repentance, because he'd already been through that with John (the baptizer).

 

[PaulThomson]

When He initially credited Abraham righteousness or sometime thereafter?

To enter a covenant with someone requires at minimum that I trust them >50% at the time we are entering that covenant. History before Abraham's call showed that God is willing to be loyal to those who trust Him. I would suggest that this was the minimal basis of pre-Abrahamic covenantal faithfulness a.k.a righteousness a.k.a. justification and that Abraham understood that much. So, when Abraham fulfilled that requirement he was credited as covenantally faithful and accepted by God as such.

 

[PaulThomson]

Well it can't be referring to his water baptism of repentance, because he'd already been through that with John (the baptizer).

And the Lord had already been baptised with the Holy Spirit immediately after that. So what baptism was it? The baptism of fire/suffering for righteousness' sake?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Which baptism was Jesus referring to here?

Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

His suffering and death on the cross is my opinion a “ baptism by fire “ not actual baptism . Again though it’s just what I think is there. Nothing official or anything.

Assuming the surrounding text helps us

“I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:49-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i think he’s saying he has to suffer and die to enter his glory just an opinion tbough . I don’t think that establishes another baptism on the doctrine at all

 

[Lamar]

These Gentiles clearly believed in Him and received forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43) and received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) and the spiritual gift of tongues (Acts 10:46) which is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47) Crystal clear.

Peter with a background in thinking that gentiles are unclean comes to the House of Cornelius (Acts 10:27-29). Cornelius desires to hear the Gospel (Acts 10:30-33). Peter preaches the Gospel as he did in Acts at Pentecost (2:34-43). The gentiles listening began to speak in tongues as did those at Pentecost. The Christian Jews are amazed that God would do this for gentiles. (Acts 10:44-46). Peter now seeing that the gentiles are believers accepted by God sees the need for water baptism for the remission of sins and so commands it to be done (Acts 10:47-48).

Mailmandan, you want Acts 10 to be different from Acts 2 but they are both in harmony.

There is no mention of forgiveness of sins or the Gift of the Holy Spirit before water baptism in your example.

 

[mailmandan]

Peter with a background in thinking that gentiles are unclean comes to the House of Cornelius (Acts 10:27-29). Cornelius desires to hear the Gospel (Acts 10:30-33). Peter preaches the Gospel as he did in Acts at Pentecost (2:34-43). The gentiles listening began to speak in tongues as did those at Pentecost. The Christian Jews are amazed that God would do this for gentiles. (Acts 10:44-46). Peter now seeing that the gentiles are believers accepted by God sees the need for water baptism for the remission of sins and so commands it to be done (Acts 10:47-48).

Mailmandan, you want Acts 10 to be different from Acts 2 but they are both in harmony.

There is no mention of forgiveness of sins or the Gift of the Holy Spirit before water baptism in your example.

I already proved otherwise in posts #409 and #415. Your CoC indoctrination runs deep and keeps you from accepting the truth.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus taught three baptisms, of water, of Spirit and of fire. Jesus underwent all three, baptised with water by John, baptised with the Holy Spirit as He came up out of the water, and baptised with fire/suffering as he went to the cross. While I do agree that Jesus did have the authority to baptise with the Holy Spirit, an ability John the Baptist did not, you have ignored the recorded cases of disciples going through baptism with water in Jesus name, during Jesus' ministry and after His ascension.
If jesus needed to go through water baptism to fulfil all righteousness, and his apostles enjoined water baptism and oversaw the water baptism of converts, why are some Christians enjoining converts not to be water baptised? The Israelites who left Egypt had refused circumcision, and had refused to circumcise their children, and they all fell in the desert. and entered not into that promised rest. It seems very presumptuous of certain Christians to discourage converts from water baptism. Jannes and Jambres also come to mind. The Scribes and Pharisees who refused water baptism and tried to prevent others from taking water baptism also come to mind.

You may be missing the spiritual reality of the revelation of the Christ.

You mentioned the physical circumcision the shadow circumcision; the old covenant shadow that was Israel.

I do believe AI reads the text correctly.

Yes, using only the Bible, a strong case can be made that the New Testament (NT) reveals a spiritual fulfilment or transformation of many Old Testament (OT) physical, natural, and visible practices. This reflects a deeper, often heavenly or inward reality supplanting the outward rituals. Below is a concise biblical survey showing this trend:


1. Baptism: Physical → Spiritual

• John's water baptism was external and preparatory:
  
  “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me… will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
  — Matthew 3:11​
• Jesus’ baptism in the Holy Spirit brings inner transformation:
  
  “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”
  — 1 Corinthians 12:13​
  “Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God…”
  — Colossians 2:12​

2. Circumcision: Fleshly → Spiritual

• Physical circumcision was a sign under the Old Covenant:
  
  “This is my covenant… Every male among you shall be circumcised.”
  — Genesis 17:10​
• Spiritual circumcision in Christ replaces the physical rite:
  
  “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands… by the circumcision of Christ.”
  — Colossians 2:11​
  “For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly… But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit…”
  — Romans 2:28–29​

3. Bread & Manna: Physical → Christ as Spiritual Bread

• OT manna was physical sustenance:
  
  “He gave them bread from heaven to eat.”
  — John 6:31, citing Exodus 16​
• Jesus as true bread from heaven:
  
  “I am the bread of life… Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died… I am the living bread that came down from heaven.”
  — John 6:48–51​
  “The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
  — John 6:51​

4. Temple: Physical → Spiritual Body

• Physical temple in Jerusalem was central in OT worship.
• Jesus and the Church as the true temple:
  
  “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… But he was speaking about the temple of his body.”
  — John 2:19–21​
  “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?”
  — 1 Corinthians 3:16​

5. Sacrifices: Animal → Christ’s Spiritual Sacrifice

• OT animal sacrifices were repeated and symbolic:
  
  “For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.”
  — Hebrews 10:4​
• Jesus as the once-for-all true sacrifice:
  
  “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.”
  — Hebrews 10:12​
  “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”
  — John 1:29​

6. Priesthood: Levitical → Christ & Believers

• OT Levitical priests mediated on behalf of the people.
• Jesus as the eternal high priest:
  
  “We have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God…”
  — Hebrews 4:14​
• Believers as a spiritual priesthood:
  
  “You… are a chosen race, a royal priesthood… to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God.”
  — 1 Peter 2:5, 9​

7. Mount Zion and Jerusalem: Earthly → Heavenly

• Physical Jerusalem was the center of OT religion.
• Believers look to a heavenly Jerusalem:
  
  “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem…”
  — Hebrews 12:22​
  “But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.”
  — Galatians 4:26​

Conclusion

Yes, the New Testament reveals a clear and deliberate spiritualization of Old Testament shadows and symbols. Earthly forms are shown to be types pointing to heavenly, spiritual realities fulfilled in Christ.

“These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”
— Colossians 2:17​