Did God plan for man to fall to prove something to Satan and his angels?
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Well,when you aren't able to properly engage in a discussion some whittle down that deficit so to make it simple for you. By posing a question that encapsulates the prior discussion topic and to then make it a simple matter of answering the point,yes or no.
You don't even do that.
When something is beyond your understanding there is no shame in admitting that.
You don't even do that.
When something is beyond your understanding there is no shame in admitting that.
Oh? Have you ever bothered to look at what it means in Hebrew?
1288
01288 barak {baw-rak'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 285; v
AV - bless 302, salute 5, curse 4, blaspheme 2, blessing 2, praised 2,
kneel down 2, congratulate 1, kneel 1, make to kneel 1, misc 8; 330
1) to bless, kneel
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to kneel
1a2) to bless
1b) (Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
1c) (Piel) to bless
1d) (Pual) to be blessed, be adored
1e) (Hiphil) to cause to kneel
1f) (Hithpael) to bless oneself
2) (TWOT) to praise, salute, curse
Now, the tense of the verb "curse" in this verse is Piel:
1c) (Piel) to bless
And thus the meaning of the verb is to "bless".
Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action as well as it also implies a repeated action meaning it is usually done more than once. In this case someone will “bless” God more than once.
OT:1288
barak (baw-rak'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):
Lexicon:
"It is properly used of persons, and is transferred to curses and impious words against God." This specific definition for the word in question is found in Job 1:5, 1:11 and Job 2:5.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
So what Satan literally said was:
"he will speak impious words against you"
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
im•pi•ous (im'pe-?s, im-pi'-) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Lacking reverence; not pious.
2. Lacking due respect or dutifulness: impious toward one's parents.
In today's terms it would mean Job spoke in disrespect to God, and about God.
Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
Charging God foolishly would be equal to cursing/speaking disrespect and impiously toward or about God.
Eventually Job would commit these bad things and sin.
1288
01288 barak {baw-rak'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 285; v
AV - bless 302, salute 5, curse 4, blaspheme 2, blessing 2, praised 2,
kneel down 2, congratulate 1, kneel 1, make to kneel 1, misc 8; 330
1) to bless, kneel
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to kneel
1a2) to bless
1b) (Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
1c) (Piel) to bless
1d) (Pual) to be blessed, be adored
1e) (Hiphil) to cause to kneel
1f) (Hithpael) to bless oneself
2) (TWOT) to praise, salute, curse
Now, the tense of the verb "curse" in this verse is Piel:
1c) (Piel) to bless
And thus the meaning of the verb is to "bless".
Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action as well as it also implies a repeated action meaning it is usually done more than once. In this case someone will “bless” God more than once.
OT:1288
barak (baw-rak'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):
Lexicon:
"It is properly used of persons, and is transferred to curses and impious words against God." This specific definition for the word in question is found in Job 1:5, 1:11 and Job 2:5.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
So what Satan literally said was:
"he will speak impious words against you"
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
im•pi•ous (im'pe-?s, im-pi'-) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Lacking reverence; not pious.
2. Lacking due respect or dutifulness: impious toward one's parents.
In today's terms it would mean Job spoke in disrespect to God, and about God.
Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
Charging God foolishly would be equal to cursing/speaking disrespect and impiously toward or about God.
Eventually Job would commit these bad things and sin.
Job blamed God for everything bad that happened to him and accused God of enjoying it etc.
Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
“God destroys the innocent along with the guilty.”
Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
“When a good person dies a accidental death, God sits back and laughs during the trial.
And who else but God blindfolds the judges, then lets the wicked take over the earth?“
This sounds like the convoluted universalism false doctrine to me, Gods elect are a remnant, a portion, and usually smaller . Isa 1:9
Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Rom 11:5-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Rom 11:5-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Job responded to Eliphaz and Bildad who both claimed that the reason Job was suffering was because of some secret sin in Job's life. Eliphaz and Bildad believed Job was being punished by God for something Job had done and for which Job needed to repent.
Job asked Eliphaz Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred (Job 6:24) ... because Job did not know he was experiencing the onslaught of satan. Job was willing to repent of sin he committed. Job just did not know what he had done for which he needed to repent.
As @sawdust said ... "you confuse trying to understand God's way and cursing God ".
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Job asked Eliphaz Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred (Job 6:24) ... because Job did not know he was experiencing the onslaught of satan. Job was willing to repent of sin he committed. Job just did not know what he had done for which he needed to repent.
As @sawdust said ... "you confuse trying to understand God's way and cursing God ".
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How can you know what Motivates God when you have not known what motivates your fellow man brother. God is not at war with satan. Satan is not His match. since satan was casted down to this realm He contends with us and God contends with him. Those things which we can not understand belongs to God.
I see many arguing on universalism and predestination. Argue all you want but make sure you are on this side of the fence. at Jesus' side before arguing.
The kind of advice I give those I disciple.
I see many arguing on universalism and predestination. Argue all you want but make sure you are on this side of the fence. at Jesus' side before arguing.
The kind of advice I give those I disciple.
I agree you believe that.
I do not believe God laughs at the trials and afflictions of the innocent, and I do not believe that was Job's intent when the statement was made. At that point in Job's suffering, Job did not know he was being attacked by satan. All Job knew was that he was unaware of sin he had committed for which God should correct him. We know from chapter 1 that Job was an upright man who revered God. The silence of God thus far in the duration of Job's trial was too much for Job (recall that God removed His hedge). Job pointed out that at times God appeared to be an uninterested observer in the plight of mankind.
But we know from Scripture that God is not an uninterested observer. We have the Word of God which tells us that as we are going through our trials and afflictions, God is working within us to perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle us (1 Peter 5:6-11). Did Job know this great nugget of truth? We know and yet as we go through times of trial, we are so focused on what's going on around us that we sometimes feel that God is not near and we are completely unaware that God is close by ... working in us as described in 1 Peter 5.
Job endured the onslaught of satan and God holds Job in high regard ...
Ezekiel 14:
12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
16 Though these three men [Noah, Daniel, and Job] were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
18 Though these three men [Noah, Daniel, and Job] were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
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I do not believe God laughs at the trials and afflictions of the innocent, and I do not believe that was Job's intent when the statement was made. At that point in Job's suffering, Job did not know he was being attacked by satan. All Job knew was that he was unaware of sin he had committed for which God should correct him. We know from chapter 1 that Job was an upright man who revered God. The silence of God thus far in the duration of Job's trial was too much for Job (recall that God removed His hedge). Job pointed out that at times God appeared to be an uninterested observer in the plight of mankind.
But we know from Scripture that God is not an uninterested observer. We have the Word of God which tells us that as we are going through our trials and afflictions, God is working within us to perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle us (1 Peter 5:6-11). Did Job know this great nugget of truth? We know and yet as we go through times of trial, we are so focused on what's going on around us that we sometimes feel that God is not near and we are completely unaware that God is close by ... working in us as described in 1 Peter 5.
Job endured the onslaught of satan and God holds Job in high regard ...
Ezekiel 14:
12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
16 Though these three men [Noah, Daniel, and Job] were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
18 Though these three men [Noah, Daniel, and Job] were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
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Unlike Job, you have the full revelation of God in Christ. Are you saying you have never misunderstood who God is and how He operates?
If Job had indeed cursed God to His face as you suggest, do you not think the Lord God would have reprimanded him for it? Yet what does the Lord accuse Job of?
Job 38:2
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
In other words Job's crime was ignorance.
May the Lord be as patient with us in our ignorance as He was with Job for we have something far greater than Job ever received.
If Job had indeed cursed God to His face as you suggest, do you not think the Lord God would have reprimanded him for it? Yet what does the Lord accuse Job of?
Job 38:2
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
In other words Job's crime was ignorance.
May the Lord be as patient with us in our ignorance as He was with Job for we have something far greater than Job ever received.