Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

While our omnilove brother is sleeping, the first suggestion is that you lose the NIV, the second is when you see translations like the ESV saying, "steadfast love" they're typically not translating a word that means "love". All of these are translating the Hebrew word "chesed" (to make it easy you to search for it), and none of your verses are translated into Greek using a Greek word that means love.

Most translations from the Hebrew scriptures render "chesed" as lovingkindness. So...when God removed his "lovingkindness" from king Saul (2Sam 7:15), you're going to tell us that he still loved him -- even though there are numerous scriptures that teach that God hates, despises, loathes sin as well as sinners?

 

[studier]

Most translations from the Hebrew scriptures render "chesed" as lovingkindness. So...when God removed his "lovingkindness" from king Saul (2Sam 7:15), you're going to tell us that he still loved him -- even though there are numerous scriptures that teach that God hates, despises, loathes sin as well as sinners?

I'm just informing that chesed is not the word meaning love. It's frequently translated with Greek "mercy." There's been a lot of research on it, and some compare it to "loyalty" in regard to covenant.

 

[GWH]

Wow! Talk about DOUBLESPEAK! "IF they exercise that efficacy to repent..."??? This is analogous to saying that if Lazarus hadn't exercised the efficacy of Christ's grace when He commanded to him to come forth, Jesus would have failed to raise him from the dead. This is just your clever way of framing what I have long maintained about you FWers: At the end of the day, all true efficacy is bound up in man's "freewill". It's not God's grace or power that finally saves; it's man's volition that he must exercise to effectuate his own salvation!

Also, there is no passage in scripture that teaches that God first loved the entire world in the distributive sense. You still insist on interpreting 1Tim 2:3-4 totally out of context! The "all men" in vv. 4 and 6 is QUALIFIED (i.e. limited) by v. 7, which reads:

1 Tim 2:7
7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle — I am telling the truth, I am not lying — and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
NIV

You obviously love your self-imposed ignorance, but here's that newsflash once again: Verse 7 limits "all men" to those Paul was appointed to teach which were Gentiles. But the entire world in the distributive sense consists of Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, the "all men" in vv. 4 and 6 means all w/o distinction, and not all w/o exception. Paul didn't say in the passage that he was appointed to teach the gospel to Jews and Gentiles.

I exercise my God-given volition and logic to harmonize Scripture,
but although I hope my effort is inspired and edifying,

including "we love God because He first loved us (Rom. 5:8) as He does everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4)
by providing seeking grace (Matt. 7:7, Tit. 2:11), thereby freeing them from enslavement to sin and hell,
if they exercise that efficacy to repent of atheism and reflect His love by loving His Son (John 8:42-47),
whereupon God's HS indwells the new convert (Rev. 3:20, 1Cor. 12:13)",

I do not view such exercise as meritorious/salvific.

I love Paul, but not your misunderstanding of his and other NT teachings,
unless I misunderstand your reluctance to agree with the kerygma:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

 

[Rufus]

I exercise my God-given volition and logic to harmonize Scripture,
but although I hope my effort is inspired and edifying,

including "we love God because He first loved us (Rom. 5:8) as He does everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4)
by providing seeking grace (Matt. 7:7, Tit. 2:11), thereby freeing them from enslavement to sin and hell,
if they exercise that efficacy to repent of atheism and reflect His love by loving His Son (John 8:42-47),
whereupon God's HS indwells the new convert (Rev. 3:20, 1Cor. 12:13)",

I do not view such exercise as meritorious/salvific.

I love Paul, but not your misunderstanding of his and other NT teachings,
unless I misunderstand your reluctance to agree with the kerygma:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

You totally misuderstand the Gospel. You glibly interpret 1Tim 2:3-4 totally out of context -- just as you do Rom 8:29. You constantly add your presuppositions to biblical texts. You manhandle, mangle and distort God's Word shamelessly.

Let's revisit Rom 8:29 for a few seconds. What if the text read: "Everyone God foreknew he predestined to be conformed..."? Or what if the text read in place of "those", "All whom God foreknew....", would you still read your garbage into it by saying the text is really saying "Everyone God foreknew [would come to faith in Him] he predestined..."? Or "All whom God foreknew [would believe on him] he predestined...?. If Paul meant to say what you superimpose on the text, why didn't he just come out and say it? Why do you assume the authority to speak for him?

 

[GWH]

You totally misuderstand the Gospel. You glibly interpret 1Tim 2:3-4 totally out of context -- just as you do Rom 8:29. You constantly add your presuppositions to biblical texts. You manhandle, mangle and distort God's Word shamelessly.

Let's revisit Rom 8:29 for a few seconds. What if the text read: "Everyone God foreknew he predestined to be conformed..."? Or what if the text read in place of "those", "All whom God foreknew....", would you still read your garbage into it by saying the text is really saying "Everyone God foreknew [would come to faith in Him] he predestined..."? Or "All whom God foreknew [would believe on him] he predestined...?. If Paul meant to say what you superimpose on the text, why didn't he just come out and say it? Why do you assume the authority to speak for him?

I assume no authority, and I love Paul, but I do not understand why you disagree regarding the Gospel.
Let's discuss that foundational doctrine before proceeding with didachaic discussions regarding predestination or whatever.

Groovy - 1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6),
who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—
a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.

Rufus - 1. There is no loving Lord God who wants all sinners to repent and go to heaven???