Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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Philippians 3 verse 3; Colossians 2 verse 11; Romans 2 verse 29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Proverbs 28 verse 26~ “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool.” Ecclesiastes 7 verse 20~ “For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Matthew 7 verse 18~ “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” Philippians 2 verse 13~ “For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”
 
Oct 19, 2024
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So, are you one of the few chosen? How do you know?

1Jo 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


1Jo 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These Scriptures speak of the proof of who is chosen, not by the manner. We know who is chosen by the right results, not by some mysterious unknown manner of choosing.

The Scripture is not about before being chosen, but about afterward.

Before His choosing, all men have sinned and are not His people. After his choosing, all His people are conformed to His Son's image in good faith and works.

The teaching ought be about how we know who is chosen of the Lord, not about how He chooses.
I agree regarding your interpretation of 1 John.
Romans 8:28 does include a reference to God foreknowing who would respond to His calling, but it does not say that God predetermined who would respond and be saved.
 

Cameron143

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I agree regarding your interpretation of 1 John.
Romans 8:28 does include a reference to God foreknowing who would respond to His calling, but it does not say that God predetermined who would respond and be saved.
It actually just says...whom He did foreknow...not what He foreknew about them. The implication is a foreknowledge of people, and not what they would do.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Me too! We freely love God!!!
But you are loathe to admit that you love him due to his unilateral New Covenant promises. You would also be loathe to admit that you love him because he first loved you! You would also not want to confess that you love God because Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God's truth has set you free FROM your captivity, enslavement and imprisonment to sin, the flesh, the world and the devil. But what you do believe is that "we freely love God" due to the efficacy of man's "freewill".
 

Rufus

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I agree regarding your interpretation of 1 John.
Romans 8:28 does include a reference to God foreknowing who would respond to His calling, but it does not say that God predetermined who would respond and be saved.
The text does not say what you claim. But the text does say unequivocally and plainly that whom God [fore]knew in eternity, he PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For
those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV

For your info, "those" is a personal pronoun. If we changed the wording of v.29 to read, "For all the chosen people God knew in eternity he also predestined...", it would not change the sense of the passage. Lots of "THOSE" in the passage. So...you don't nilly willy get to change the "those" in v.29 to an impersonal pronoun such as "what" because you don't like the force of the passage since it contradicts your false gospel.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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But you are loathe to admit that you love him due to his unilateral New Covenant promises. You would also be loathe to admit that you love him because he first loved you! You would also not want to confess that you love God because Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God's truth has set you free FROM your captivity, enslavement and imprisonment to sin, the flesh, the world and the devil. But what you do believe is that "we freely love God" due to the efficacy of man's "freewill".
No, we love God because He first loved us (Rom. 5:8) as He does everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4) by providing seeking grace (Matt. 7:7, Tit. 2:11), thereby freeing them from enslavement to sin and hell, if they exercise that efficacy to repent of atheism and reflect His love by loving His Son (John 8:42-47), whereupon God's HS indwells the new convert (Rev. 3:20, 1Cor. 12:13).
 
Oct 19, 2024
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The text does not say what you claim. But the text does say unequivocally and plainly that whom God [fore]knew in eternity, he PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For
those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV

For your info, "those" is a personal pronoun. If we changed the wording of v.29 to read, "For all the chosen people God knew in eternity he also predestined...", it would not change the sense of the passage. Lots of "THOSE" in the passage. So...you don't nilly willy get to change the "those" in v.29 to an impersonal pronoun such as "what" because you don't like the force of the passage since it contradicts your false gospel.
The "predestined" part refers to being conformed to the image of Christ
but does not say it is accomplished by being programmed/determined rather than by persuasion and teaching GW.
 

Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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The "predestined" part refers to being conformed to the image of Christ
but does not say it is accomplished by being programmed/determined rather than by persuasion and teaching GW.
Every believer is predestined to be conformed to His Image .....But then you preach the loss of salvation/walking away from salvation/forfeiting salvation. You can't make this stuff up.
 

studier

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But you are loathe to admit that you love him due to his unilateral New Covenant promises. You would also be loathe to admit that you love him because he first loved you! You would also not want to confess that you love God because Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God's truth has set you free FROM your captivity, enslavement and imprisonment to sin, the flesh, the world and the devil. But what you do believe is that "we freely love God" due to the efficacy of man's "freewill".
You're very odd.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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I believe he did. Obviously to no avail.

You still haven't answered the question: who was Abraham praying for?
Abraham was praying for the lives and property of the righteous in Sodom and Gommorah.

Gen 18
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
 

Cameron143

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Abraham was praying for the lives and property of the righteous in Sodom and Gommorah.

Gen 18
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
There were 3 righteous people in Sodom, and he was praying for their lives to be spared from the pending destruction. He wasn't concerned for their property. It was going to be destroyed. More specifically, he was praying for Lot and his household. God didn't change His mind because Abraham prayed. He was going to spare Lot's family already.
Moses prayed concerning the children of Israel and God answered His prayer. Why? Because He prayed according to the will of God. Just like 1 John 5:14-15 says.
There is alot to be learned from both prayers for sure. But the easy things aren't the hard things.
 

PaulThomson

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There were 3 righteous people in Sodom, and he was praying for their lives to be spared from the pending destruction. He wasn't concerned for their property. It was going to be destroyed. More specifically, he was praying for Lot and his household. God didn't change His mind because Abraham prayed. He was going to spare Lot's family already.
Moses prayed concerning the children of Israel and God answered His prayer. Why? Because He prayed according to the will of God. Just like 1 John 5:14-15 says.
There is alot to be learned from both prayers for sure. But the easy things aren't the hard things.
You brought up Sodom and Abraham, not me. I didn't mention Sodom as an example of God changing His mind because of prayer. You ignored my example/s and inserted a red herring of yur own to divert from the three (?) I listed,
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Every believer is predestined to be conformed to His Image .....But then you preach the loss of salvation/walking away from salvation/forfeiting salvation. You can't make this stuff up.
I share stuff Jesus and Paul made up: Matt. 12:31-32 = Heb. 6:4-6.
Plus the sour 16:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Plus, as a truthseeker I seek to harmonize all Scripture as follows:

Passages that seem to support TULIP may be harmonized with those supporting MFW as follows:

1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.

2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

3. Rom. 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).

7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Harmonizing diverse Biblical dots is called employing a "dialectical" theology or hermeneutic or "both-and" logic/synthesis.
 

Cameron143

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You brought up Sodom and Abraham, not me. I didn't mention Sodom as an example of God changing His mind because of prayer. You ignored my example/s and inserted a red herring of yur own to divert from the three (?) I listed,
But God didn't change His mind concerning Israel. Mercy is always an option when God announces judgment. And to show that God intended mercy, He answered a prayer prayed according to His will.
Just as God took Moses into the desert to train him to be a leader of His people, God trains Moses how to pray as a leader of His people. There is much more going on in prayer than simply praying.
God is an infinite being who knows the end from the beginning. His ways are beyond our comprehension. You have a way of making Him very much like us. He isn't.
 

Rufus

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No, we love God because He first loved us (Rom. 5:8) as He does everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4) by providing seeking grace (Matt. 7:7, Tit. 2:11), thereby freeing them from enslavement to sin and hell, if they exercise that efficacy to repent of atheism and reflect His love by loving His Son (John 8:42-47), whereupon God's HS indwells the new convert (Rev. 3:20, 1Cor. 12:13).
Wow! Talk about DOUBLESPEAK! "IF they exercise that efficacy to repent..."??? This is analogous to saying that if Lazarus hadn't exercised the efficacy of Christ's grace when He commanded to him to come forth, Jesus would have failed to raise him from the dead. :rolleyes: This is just your clever way of framing what I have long maintained about you FWers: At the end of the day, all true efficacy is bound up in man's "freewill". It's not God's grace or power that finally saves; it's man's volition that he must exercise to effectuate his own salvation!

Also, there is no passage in scripture that teaches that God first loved the entire world in the distributive sense. You still insist on interpreting 1Tim 2:3-4 totally out of context! The "all men" in vv. 4 and 6 is QUALIFIED (i.e. limited) by v. 7, which reads:

1 Tim 2:7
7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle — I am telling the truth, I am not lying
and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
NIV

You obviously love your self-imposed ignorance, but here's that newsflash once again: Verse 7 limits "all men" to those Paul was appointed to teach which were Gentiles. But the entire world in the distributive sense consists of Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, the "all men" in vv. 4 and 6 means all w/o distinction, and not all w/o exception. Paul didn't say in the passage that he was appointed to teach the gospel to Jews and Gentiles.
 

Rufus

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But God didn't change His mind concerning Israel. Mercy is always an option when God announces judgment. And to show that God intended mercy, He answered a prayer prayed according to His will.
Just as God took Moses into the desert to train him to be a leader of His people, God trains Moses how to pray as a leader of His people. There is much more going on in prayer than simply praying.
God is an infinite being who knows the end from the beginning. His ways are beyond our comprehension. You have a way of making Him very much like us. He isn't.
Or perhaps a more accurate (biblical) way to express this truth is that PT has a way of making man very much like God! That's what Satan wanted when he fell and that his temptation to Eve in the Garden. Also, when sinners do what is right in their own eyes, they act as though they are God.
 

Rufus

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Okay...I have a question for our resident "omnilove" proponent who fancies himself as an expert on God's love -- but first three passages upon which the question is grounded, then the question:

2 Sam 7:15
15 But my love will never be taken away from him,
as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.
NIV

Jer 16:5
5 "For thus says the Lord: Do not enter the house of mourning, or go to lament or grieve for them, for I have taken away my peace from this people,
my steadfast love and mercy, declares the Lord
ESV

Hos 2:4
4 I will not show my love to her children,
because they are the children of adultery.
NIV

Since God's character is immutable, reconcile for us, please, how God has always loved all men w/o exception in light of the three passages above.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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:unsure:

I can't even ascertain that that person wants to discuss the Bible, since they speak in gibberish and make up words that are not found in Scripture... among other things decidely anti-fellowship.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Okay...I have a question for our resident "omnilove" proponent who fancies himself as an expert on God's love -- but first three passages upon which the question is grounded, then the question:

2 Sam 7:15
15 But my love will never be taken away from him,
as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.
NIV

Jer 16:5
5 "For thus says the Lord: Do not enter the house of mourning, or go to lament or grieve for them, for I have taken away my peace from this people,
my steadfast love and mercy, declares the Lord
ESV

Hos 2:4
4 I will not show my love to her children,
because they are the children of adultery.
NIV

Since God's character is immutable, reconcile for us, please, how God has always loved all men w/o exception in light of the three passages above.
While our omnilove brother is sleeping, the first suggestion is that you lose the NIV, the second is when you see translations like the ESV saying, "steadfast love" they're typically not translating a word that means "love". All of these are translating the Hebrew word "chesed" (to make it easy you to search for it), and none of your verses are translated into Greek using a Greek word that means love.