Making a case for women in leadership

[Beckworth]

what about Miriam? didn't she prophesy publically?

Yes, she did. But remember she lived under a different law than we do today. She was a Jew. The law of Christ was non-existent. 1 Cor. 14:34 had not been written yet and she had no law prohibiting her in any way. So 1 Cor. 24:34 and 1 Tim. 2 did not apply to her.

Galations 5:4 tells us if we try to JUSTIFY ourselves by the old Jewish law of Moses we are “fallen from Grace.” What Miraiam did or Deborah, would have no bearing on our faith or practice under the law of Christ. God allowed many things in the Old Testament that are no longer allowed under the new law of Christ. 1) multiple wives, 2) hating your enemies, 3) getting vengeance, 4) divorce for any reason, just to name a few. Read Matthew 5-7 where Jesus is “changing” the law.s of the old testament. The Jews religion is so different from the laws of Christ. Jesus said “all authority has been given to Him. Matthew 28:18-19. We must abide in the doctrine of Christ in the New Testament to have God. 2 John 9. We have to use Christ and what He says as Our “authority” now.

Paul says the Old testament is written as an example for our learning so that we might not sin as they sinned. 1 Cor. 10:11.

 

[Beckworth]

Well Miriam prophesying publically isn't an opinion I was asking because I am wondering what do we make of that? and I was wondering also about Deborah being a judge as well what do we make of that?

I wasn’t answering your post—I was responding to Edify, who was judging those who are “judging sisters in the kingdom.”
I responded to your question in another post.

 

[Grace911]

Everyone knows Pauls words on women pastors or rather a women speaking or teaching in the church and at face value this would seem pretty clear however the context of the verse has to do with the issues that was going on in the church at the time but what really got me thinking was this right here

Galatians 3:28 states that in Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor male nor female, for all are one. This verse emphasizes the equality and unity of believers in Christ, transcending traditional social and cultural divisions. It highlights that these categories, while still present in human society,
are not determinants of value or significance within the Christian community and so this verse got me thinking if this is to be true then why do we take Pauls words at face value he would be contradicting the himself
unless of course he was speaking in regards to what was going on in the church at the time then it would make sense not to mention what about the women who he even baosted about who ministered to people such as Junia?

This one verse just doesn't make sense to me if indeed women are subhuman in the church and Jesus himself never forbid women of such a thing he never even addressed it
Would Jesus forbid the gospel being preached by a women?

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What was the custom at the time of Apostle Paul's teaching? I believe it was the men sat on one side of the assembly, while the women were on the other side of the assembly. Picture a wife asking a question outloud. Paul does not want this kind of behaviour and says the wife should wait and ask her questions to the husband at home. Paul was all about order as he was trained.

As a woman I am very much in favor of teaching boys and girls, and also other women, both married and single. I tried teaching a Bible class with men and women and felt such a heavy burden to say no to that setting. I believe men should step up and take on responsibilities to men and men/women groups. When a woman takes on the responsibility, she is robbing what belongs to men. I am not a women's liberal. The authority over the man is Christ and the authority over the woman is her husband, and if no husband then her father, and if no father, then her brother, and if no brother, then her assembly leaders/elders,

 

[Maori_Aussie]

If any of my sisters in Christ are dispirited reading this thread and feel that the Holy Spirit does want to use them like the NT Apostle Junia (Romans 16:7), do not overlook potential ministry in the Salvation Army Church. The Salvation Army has had women preachers since 1860, and in the 1980’s Eva Burrows was elected to lead the worldwide Salvation Army. I would always encourage prayer for guidance on any issue like this. God Bless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Burrows
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junia_(New_Testament_person)

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

As a woman I am very much in favor of teaching boys and girls, and also other women, both married and single. I tried teaching a Bible class with men and women and felt such a heavy burden to say no to that setting. I believe men should step up and take on responsibilities to men and men/women groups. When a woman takes on the responsibility, she is robbing what belongs to men. I am not a women's liberal. The authority over the man is Christ and the authority over the woman is her husband, and if no husband then her father, and if no father, then her brother, and if no brother, then her assembly leaders/elders,

I agree. Satan is succeeding in regard to women usurping men's authority in the church and household. BUT he's also encouraging men to disobey God and abdicate their authority to lead in the church and household. This also needs to be addressed!

This is why Adam was guilty - because he let Eve lead them into sin, did not stop her from sinning and correcting her as he should have. Satan is making a lot of sissies out of men who don't know or can't lead or use their authority properly.


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[Dino246]

1 Timothy 2 makes perfect sense in light of the religious context of Ephesus, where Timothy was working. There were gnostic cults with female teachers who used seduction (authentein, poorly translated as "usurp authority"), taught that a Eve was created first and was completely innocent, and that childbirth was to be avoided. A female convert from such a background would need to learn in silence (as the men did) before teaching.

The pronouns used in 1 Timothy 3 are gender-neutral. The only statement that is directed specifically at men is "husband of one wife", which makes perfect sense in a culture where concubines were common but polyandry was rare.

The man may be the "head" of the woman in 1 Corinthians 11, but it does not say that men (plural) are the head of women, so that "order" has nothing to do with leadership in the Church. The same chapter permits women to pray publicly, so Paul cannot be commanding their silence in 14:35.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 cannot apply to all women, because not all women were married. I believe those verses are a paraphrased question from the Corinthians, which accounts for Paul's expression of shock in verse 36. There is nothing in the Law (Torah) requiring women to be "in submission" (v. 34); wives to their own husbands, yes, but women in general, no. Paul's response, "Did the word of God come only to you?" makes sense if he's directing that question to the men. Otherwise, that reaction has no rational referent.

Neither the Holy Spirit nor Paul were confused. The same Holy Spirit Who inspired Galatians 3:28 inspired 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians. The same Holy Spirit empowered Priscilla to teach, Chloe to be a deacon, Philip's daughters to prophesy, and Junia to help plant churches. The Holy Spirit still empowers both men and women who say, "Here am I; send me."

 

[Beckworth]

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What was the custom at the time of Apostle Paul's teaching? I believe it was the men sat on one side of the assembly, while the women were on the other side of the assembly. Picture a wife asking a question outloud. Paul does not want this kind of behaviour and says the wife should wait and ask her questions to the husband at home. Paul was all about order as he was trained.

As a woman I am very much in favor of teaching boys and girls, and also other women, both married and single. I tried teaching a Bible class with men and women and felt such a heavy burden to say no to that setting. I believe men should step up and take on responsibilities to men and men/women groups. When a woman takes on the responsibility, she is robbing what belongs to men. I am not a women's liberal. The authority over the man is Christ and the authority over the woman is her husband, and if no husband then her father, and if no father, then her brother, and if no brother, then her assembly leaders/elders,

I have doubts that men and women were segregated in the church assemblies in the New Testament , mainly because most assemblies were in people’s homes. The church did meet in a school one time, but I doubt there were church buildings as we are use to today. I believe historians record segregated assemblies a couple of hundred years after the time 1 Corinthians was written. And 1 Corinthians 11 says that the head of woman is “man”—not her husband. While he would be included in that group, I believe it is much more inclusive than that. It is a general category including all men, not just husbands. There is no mention in 1 Corinthians 11 of fathers, brothers or church leaders in that passage.

 

[Gideon300]

Could it be that Paul was speaking of himself and not what he heard from God?
Woman were considered second class citizens back then and not to be taken seriously.
Most of the church was in fact jewish converts.
Paul ministry was very new and fresh with many debated issues to resolve.
Could it be possible Paul was speaking to the culture of the time as this would undoubtedly bring another issue to contend with.
Jews are customs keepers and perhaps a women in authority would make it more difficult to spread the gospel.

No. God has an established order of authority in the church. It does not preclude women preachers and teachers. It does preclude women having authority over men, including in marriage.

 

[Snackersmom]

And 1 Corinthians 11 says that the head of woman is “man”—not her husband. While he would be included in that group, I believe it is much more inclusive than that. It is a general category including all men, not just husbands.

If that it what you believe to be true, then why are you (a female) teaching /correcting /debating so many men in this very thread? 🤔

Shouldn't you be deferring to whatever they have to say, since you feel that all Christian men are qualified to be your "head"? 🤔

 

[Leastofall]

I do believe God is a order oriented God and the case may be males only in authority roles.
What I've seen in this thread is comparing other woman's roles throughout the bible to support their view point as examples.
What I have not seen in the Bible is a female shepherd. If someone could point to one I'd be interested.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

If that it what you believe to be true, then why are you (a female) teaching /correcting /debating so many men in this very thread? 🤔

Shouldn't you be deferring to whatever they have to say, since you feel that all Christian men are qualified to be your "head"? 🤔

If you read her posts carefully, she explains things in context of the church and family, complying with God's set rules of authority and hierarchy so that things run smoothly and orderly in obedience to Him.

This is a forum, not church or family, so it's fine if she's teaching/correcting/debating the men here. It's a casual setting - people can take or leave whatever is being posted as none of us have any authority to enforce our beliefs on others. So she's not exercising any authority over any men in this forum - or even women.


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[Maori_Aussie]

I have doubts that men and women were segregated in the church assemblies in the New Testament.
Archelogy of ancient "Bar Thoma" (Thomas churches in southern India) shows segregation

I do believe God is a order oriented God and the case may be males only in authority roles.
What I've seen in this thread is comparing other woman's roles throughout the bible to support their view point as examples.
What I have not seen in the Bible is a female shepherd. If someone could point to one I'd be interested.

I believe that Deborah was well rounded being a Prophet for religious matters and a Judge for civil matters. Deborah was also prepared to lead the Israelite army if necessary.

 

[Snackersmom]

If you read her posts carefully, she explains things in context of the church and family, complying with God's set rules of authority and hierarchy so that things run smoothly and orderly in obedience to Him.

This is a forum, not church or family, so it's fine if she's teaching/correcting/debating the men here. It's a casual setting - people can take or leave whatever is being posted as none of us have any authority to enforce our beliefs on others. So she's not exercising any authority over any men in this forum - or even women.


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If you read my post carefully, you will see that my issue is not with her (or any other woman) participating on this forum.

My issue is with her assertion that all men are the head of all women (post #67). If such be the case, one should not be publicly "teaching" and "correcting" their spiritual "head", whether the setting be formal, informal, online, or otherwise.

I am not asking her to stop preaching, I am merely asking her to practice what she is preaching.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

If you read my post carefully, you will see that my issue is not with her (or any other woman) participating on this forum.

My issue is with her assertion that all men are the head of all women (post #67). If such be the case, one should not be publicly "teaching" and "correcting" their spiritual "head", whether the setting be formal, informal, online, or otherwise.

I am not asking her to stop preaching, I am merely asking her to practice what she is preaching.

She was talking about within the church though, not anywhere else. God wants order within His church and in families. She wasn't talking about a blanket authority of men over women anywhere and everywhere. Please read her posts again.


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[GWH]

She was talking about within the church though, not anywhere else. God wants order within His church and in families. She wasn't talking about a blanket authority of men over women anywhere and everywhere. Please read her posts again.


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Well, although I beat my wife up every morning,
perhaps Paul was using irony when he commanded them to be silent.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Well, although I beat my wife up every morning,
perhaps Paul was using irony when he commanded them to be silent.

Really, you beat your wife up? That makes you a horrible leader and God won't listen to your prayers anymore. Just because there are bad leaders doesn't mean that we're to stay and continue to be harmed. Jesus would move away from people about to beat Him up during His 3-year ministry and only allows the abuse when He got arrested.

You don't think God doesn't have any mechanisms of escape for people being abused??? You think they should just take it??? God will take up their case - the whole Bible talks of the many times that God helped people who were abused.

You're just saying that to scare women into NOT obeying God on this matter.

Also, as women of God, we're to choose wisely the company we keep - that includes choosing wise leaders to be our husbands and pastors. That's why it's so important not to rush into marriage or blindly follow pastors.

And if they should turn on you later in life, God always shows a way to deal with them. Christian women's loyalty is to God FIRST!


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[Cameron143]

Really, you beat your wife up? That makes you a horrible leader and God won't listen to your prayers anymore. Just because there are bad leaders doesn't mean that we're to stay and continue to be harmed. Jesus would move away from people about to beat Him up during His 3-year ministry and only allows the abuse when He got arrested.

You don't think God doesn't have any mechanisms of escape for people being abused??? You think they should just take it??? God will take up their case - the whole Bible talks of the many times that God helped people who were abused.

You're just saying that to scare women into NOT obeying God on this matter.

Also, as women of God, we're to choose wisely the company we keep - that includes choosing wise leaders to be our husbands and pastors. That's why it's so important not to rush into marriage or blindly follow pastors.

And if they should turn on you later in life, God always shows a way to deal with them. Christian women's loyalty is to God FIRST!


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He awakes and gets out of bed before his wife...he beats his wife up.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

He awakes and gets out of bed before his wife...he beats his wife up.

Lol! Now I get it!

(I still won't take back what I wrote though - women should know they don't have to stay with anyone who is abusive!)


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[Edify]

This is a forum, not church or family, so it's fine if she's teaching/correcting/debating the men here.

People have declared, & rightly so, that the church is the body of Christ(christians), not the building , not the service.
So according to their beliefs, they ARE breaking their own rules.

 

[Snackersmom]

She was talking about within the church though, not anywhere else. God wants order within His church and in families. She wasn't talking about a blanket authority of men over women anywhere and everywhere. Please read her posts again.


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Nothing within her post clarifies that she is only referring to the authority of all the males within a person's chosen "home" congregation. Perhaps that is what she meant, if so she can clarify that herself.

People have declared, & rightly so, that the church is the body of Christ(christians), not the building , not the service.
So according to their beliefs, they ARE breaking their own rules.

I do not know if @Beckworth holds to this belief, but I do agree that if we're going to paint scripture with a broad brush we ought to give all verses the same treatment! 😜

And I do agree with you that the assembly of believers IS the church, we think of it as a building or our denomination of choice but that's not how the Bible describes it. 👍