Making a case for women in leadership

[Maori_Aussie]

Who was the first to have faith in the Incarnation of Jesus... Mary, mother of Jesus.
Who was the first to have faith in the Messiahship of Jesus... Mary, mother of Jesus, or the Samaritan woman at the well? Or Peter?
Who was the first to know that Jesus had to Die... I would argue, Mary, sister of Lazarus? John 12: 7
Who was the Resurrection of Jesus first revealed to... Mary Madaleine.

 

[Leastofall]

Could it be that Paul was speaking of himself and not what he heard from God?
Woman were considered second class citizens back then and not to be taken seriously.
Most of the church was in fact jewish converts.
Paul ministry was very new and fresh with many debated issues to resolve.
Could it be possible Paul was speaking to the culture of the time as this would undoubtedly bring another issue to contend with.
Jews are customs keepers and perhaps a women in authority would make it more difficult to spread the gospel.

 

[Beckworth]

@Beckworth I apologize but I couldn't read your whole post it strains my eyes to much but I got the gist of it. so if man is to rule over women what is the role of a women within the body of Christ? where do they stand in the church?

1 Corinthians 14 :37 is addressing women in
Public worship. See verse 23 and 26. Timothy says she is not to USURP authority over a man. This is the reason for her submission. She can’t be in a leadership position public ally. Acts 18 tells us that a husband-wife team PRIVATELY Taught Apollos. And Timothy’s mother and grandmother taught him as a child. Paul tells older women to teach younger women; so I know women can teach —privately.

It’s just that men and women’s roles in the church are different—just like they are in the FAMILY. Men are the “head” of the home. They are commanded by God to “provide” For their families. Women are commanded by God to be “keepers at home and guide the house.” Their roles are different. Both are important. Both are necessary, Both are loved and when they each fill their responsibility as God instructed, it works perfectly and beautifully together.

Men and women have different roles in the church. Just like God the Father and Christ the Son had different roles to play in the salvation of man.

There are many ways women may serve in the church, but it is “behind the scenes.” God has not given them the job of being leaders in His Church. They can teach women’s and children’s classes in accordance with 2 Timothy 1 and Titus 2:4. They can perform many good and charitable works for preachers and the brethren. They can help with things like bulletins, meals, and most any good work. There are just a few basic guidelines—do not usurp authority over a man; and that includes preaching and public speaking or teaching.

The early church had elders and deacons; but the scriptures specify these are to be “men.” 1 Tim. 3:1-“…if a MAN desires the office of a bishop ( elder)…”. Verse 2- he must be the HUSBAND of one wife. Deacons also must be men according to the scriptures. (Verse 8); their WIVES must be reverent. Verse 11.

Women such as Dorcas was “full of good works which she did.” Acts 9. Lydia opened her home to provide a place for Paul and Silas to stay as they preached Christ. acts 16. Philippians 4, Paul said there were women (plural) who labored with him in the gospel. Women were active in the early church, but there are never any examples of them taking leadership roles in the church; which is not surprising if you believe the scriptures do not contradict each other.

 

[Blain]

1 Corinthians 14 :37 is addressing women in
Public worship. See verse 23 and 26. Timothy says she is not to USURP authority over a man. This is the reason for her submission. She can’t be in a leadership position public ally. Acts 18 tells us that a husband-wife team PRIVATELY Taught Apollos. And Timothy’s mother and grandmother taught him as a child. Paul tells older women to teach younger women; so I know women can teach —privately.

It’s just that men and women’s roles in the church are different—just like they are in the FAMILY. Men are the “head” of the home. They are commanded by God to “provide” For their families. Women are commanded by God to be “keepers at home and guide the house.” Their roles are different. Both are important. Both are necessary, Both are loved and when they each fill their responsibility as God instructed, it works perfectly and beautifully together.

Men and women have different roles in the church. Just like God the Father and Christ the Son had different roles to play in the salvation of man.

There are many ways women may serve in the church, but it is “behind the scenes.” God has not given them the job of being leaders in His Church. They can teach women’s and children’s classes in accordance with 2 Timothy 1 and Titus 2:4. They can perform many good and charitable works for preachers and the brethren. They can help with things like bulletins, meals, and most any good work. There are just a few basic guidelines—do not usurp authority over a man; and that includes preaching and public speaking or teaching.

The early church had elders and deacons; but the scriptures specify these are to be “men.” 1 Tim. 3:1-“…if a MAN desires the office of a bishop ( elder)…”. Verse 2- he must be the HUSBAND of one wife. Deacons also must be men according to the scriptures. (Verse 8); their WIVES must be reverent. Verse 11.

Women such as Dorcas was “full of good works which she did.” Acts 9. Lydia opened her home to provide a place for Paul and Silas to stay as they preached Christ. acts 16. Philippians 4, Paul said there were women (plural) who labored with him in the gospel. Women were active in the early church, but there are never any examples of them taking leadership roles in the church; which is not surprising if you believe the scriptures do not contradict each other.

Ok I guess that makes sense thanks for explaining it I especially understood how a man is the head of the house hold part

 

[Blain]

Could it be that Paul was speaking of himself and not what he heard from God?
Woman were considered second class citizens back then and not to be taken seriously.
Most of the church was in fact jewish converts.
Paul ministry was very new and fresh with many debated issues to resolve.
Could it be possible Paul was speaking to the culture of the time as this would undoubtedly bring another issue to contend with.
Jews are customs keepers and perhaps a women in authority would make it more difficult to spread the gospel.

Yes ge was speaking in accordance of the culture at the time but at the same time I am starting to understand that even with the apostles they were all men with every and with every prophet that God used except for a rare few they were all men as well so maybe God does have an ordained position for men and women at least to some extent.
There weas at least one prophetess that I can recall but other than that they were all men so maybe Paul was only speaking from the culture at the time but maybe it really was inspired by God as well I mean it is in the bible and thus if we are to believe the word of God is indeed the word of God then the fact it is in there must mean we must accept it as such.

Though to be fair I still think there is something to be said about a prophetess though I don't know really if that would be the same as a female female pastor being forbidden

 

[Gideon300]

Everyone knows Pauls words on women pastors or rather a women speaking or teaching in the church and at face value this would seem pretty clear however the context of the verse has to do with the issues that was going on in the church at the time but what really got me thinking was this right here

Galatians 3:28 states that in Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor male nor female, for all are one. This verse emphasizes the equality and unity of believers in Christ, transcending traditional social and cultural divisions. It highlights that these categories, while still present in human society,
are not determinants of value or significance within the Christian community and so this verse got me thinking if this is to be true then why do we take Pauls words at face value he would be contradicting the himself
unless of course he was speaking in regards to what was going on in the church at the time then it would make sense not to mention what about the women who he even baosted about who ministered to people such as Junia?

This one verse just doesn't make sense to me if indeed women are subhuman in the church and Jesus himself never forbid women of such a thing he never even addressed it
Would Jesus forbid the gospel being preached by a women?

Jesus did not forbid women preaching. What is clear from the scriptures is that there is an authority structure in the church. The modern idea of every married woman being automatically a pastor is not biblical. Neither is the idea of a pastor being a one man band. The modern church is little like the Biblical pattern, which is one reason for so many problems being overlooked.

Church government is by elders, who are male, with various ministries that should be contributing to teaching, preaching and ministerig to the needs of the people. Women for sure can preach and teach, but only if they are in submission to their husbands and church leadership.

A good example of this is Joyce Meyer. She ministers mostly to women, which Paul said was correct. She is in submission to her husband, who she obviously greatly respects. There are other women preachers who make my blood run cold. One or two that I know of are witches. Avoid them like the plague. I know there are plenty of Joyce Meyer haters. I don't agree with everything she says. However, she meets a need that no male preacher could. And she has changed dramatically over the last 50 years or so since she started out.

My wife has been blessed by Joyce Meyer, as have countless other women and, I expect men.

There were many women in ministry in the Old testament. Miriam was a prophetess, Deborah was a judge. Esther was used mightily to deliver Israel. Hannah gave up her son Samuel to God's service.

Psalm 68:11
"The Lord announces the word, and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng......."

 

[Beckworth]

Could it be that Paul was speaking of himself and not what he heard from God?
Woman were considered second class citizens back then and not to be taken seriously.
Most of the church was in fact jewish converts.
Paul ministry was very new and fresh with many debated issues to resolve.
Could it be possible Paul was speaking to the culture of the time as this would undoubtedly bring another issue to contend with.
Jews are customs keepers and perhaps a women in authority would make it more difficult to spread the gospel.[/

True, but "deaconess" means female deacon, so I am surprised it is not in the RSV of Rom.16:1.

These “epistles” we know were “letters”, in most cases written to churches by the Apostles or other inspired men.
Check to see to whom the letter was addressed. Corinthians was addressed to the church at Corinth AND to those called to be saints and to ALL who in every place call on the name of the Lord. So the things Paul wrote in this letter was for all Christian’s everywhere.

Also, they had no Bible at this time. These letters were God’ s word (inspired men) ‘. These were their Bible—until the completed one was made. These letters were for all Christians—not just for the ones at Corinth. They were told to “pass” these inspired writings around to all the churches so every Christian could know what God wanted them to do. Read Colossians 4:16- “Now when this letter ( Colossians) is read among you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you likewise read the letter from Laodicea.”

1 Thess. 5:27- “I charge you by the Lord, that this epistle be read TO ALL OF THE HOLY BRETHREN.”

1Cor. 16:1-2-“ Just as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, even so do you…”

So ALL of the letters and inspired writings were passed around to be read in every church and by all Christian’s everywhere.

When Paul was addressing a “local” problem that was specific to only that church, he specified the problem and the church; so you knew it was specific. Example: 1Cor. Chapter one; He says, “ I hear there are DIVISIONS among you.” That was just for Corinth. In chapter 5, he says they have adultery going on in their. Congregation and are not doing anything about it. In Philippians 4:2, Paul singles out 2 women in that church, who must have been at odds with one another and tells them to “be of the same mind.” So, I think it is a mistake to assume a passage in God’s word is localized and does not apply to us, unless it is specified in the text. Add to that the fact that Paul says that the things he writes to them “ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.” 14:37.

Women were active in the early church but did not have leadership roles. This was Paul’s teaching in both 1 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy 2:11-14. There were elders and deacons in the early church, but both offices were for men—not women. 1 Timothy 3, “If a MAN desires the office of a bishop ( elder), he desires a good work. Verse 2, he must be the “HUSBAND of one wife…”. Titus 1:5 Paul left Titus in Crete “to appoint elders in every city”” verse 6– “If a MAN is blameless…”. In 1 Tim. 3:8 likewise deacons…verse 11 their WIVES must not be slanderers. There is no office of “deaconess” or of a woman ever being a “deacon”. This is a man made term to describe women who were very active in the early church. The word simply means a servant or helper. Many women were certainly that. Dorcas Acts 9 was “full of good works, which she did.” Lydia opened her home to Paul and Silas on one of their missionary journeys Acts 16. Paul had women who helped him as he worked preaching the gospel. Philippians 4:3. But again, there was no official office as “deaconess” in the early church as there was for a deacon. Paul’s teaching in 1Cor. 14:37 forbade women from taking a public role of leadership.

 

[Blain]

Jesus did not forbid women preaching. What is clear from the scriptures is that there is an authority structure in the church. The modern idea of every married woman being automatically a pastor is not biblical. Neither is the idea of a pastor being a one man band. The modern church is little like the Biblical pattern, which is one reason for so many problems being overlooked.

Church government is by elders, who are male, with various ministries that should be contributing to teaching, preaching and ministerig to the needs of the people. Women for sure can preach and teach, but only if they are in submission to their husbands and church leadership.

A good example of this is Joyce Meyer. She ministers mostly to women, which Paul said was correct. She is in submission to her husband, who she obviously greatly respects. There are other women preachers who make my blood run cold. One or two that I know of are witches. Avoid them like the plague. I know there are plenty of Joyce Meyer haters. I don't agree with everything she says. However, she meets a need that no male preacher could. And she has changed dramatically over the last 50 years or so since she started out.

My wife has been blessed by Joyce Meyer, as have countless other women and, I expect men.

There were many women in ministry in the Old testament. Miriam was a prophetess, Deborah was a judge. Esther was used mightily to deliver Israel. Hannah gave up her son Samuel to God's service.

Psalm 68:11
"The Lord announces the word, and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng......."

See Deborah being a judge is interesting isn't that a postion of authority? didn't judges rule over people?

 

[Beckworth]

Yes ge was speaking in accordance of the culture at the time but at the same time I am starting to understand that even with the apostles they were all men with every and with every prophet that God used except for a rare few they were all men as well so maybe God does have an ordained position for men and women at least to some extent.
There weas at least one prophetess that I can recall but other than that they were all men so maybe Paul was only speaking from the culture at the time but maybe it really was inspired by God as well I mean it is in the bible and thus if we are to believe the word of God is indeed the word of God then the fact it is in there must mean we must accept it as such.

Though to be fair I still think there is something to be said about a prophetess though I don't know really if that would be the same as a female female pastor being forbidden

Paul addresses women who pray or prophesy in chapter 11.where he is addressing head coverings. As far as I can tell in the context this is “private” not public praying and prophesying. If a woman was to prophesy publicly in the assembly that would be a contradiction of 14:34. Another verse that supports this is right after he talks about women covering their heads when they prophesy, in verse 18, he specified “When you come together as a church.” And again in verse 20. So it seems the things in the first part were not when they in a church assembly but beginning with verse 18, he IS addressing public worship. This is consistent with Paul’s teaching in 14:34.

 

[Beckworth]

See Deborah being a judge is interesting isn't that a postion of authority? didn't judges rule over people?

we have to remember that Deborah lived under a different law.—the law of Moses or old Jewish law. We live under the law of Christ. 1 Cor. -4:34 was not in existence when Deborah was a judge. Nor was it ever for her or her people. God permitted many things in the Old Testament law that He no longer permits for Christians living under the law of Christ. 1) Now men must have only one wife; under the law of Moses men could have many wives. 2) men could hate their enemies and get revenge; under the law of Christ we are to LOVE our enemies. We can’t hate them anymore. God now says we cannot repay evil for evil— vengeance is mine says the Lord. 3) under the Law of Moses men could get a divorce for any reason; Now, , under the law of Christ, there is only one reason for divorce—adultery. So you see, there are many, many differences between the law that Deborah was under as a Jew and the law we are under as Christian’s. It’s like comparing oranges to apples.

 

[Blain]

Paul addresses women who pray or prophesy in chapter 11.where he is addressing head coverings. As far as I can tell in the context this is “private” not public praying and prophesying. If a woman was to prophesy publicly in the assembly that would be a contradiction of 14:34. Another verse that supports this is right after he talks about women covering their heads when they prophesy, in verse 18, he specified “When you come together as a church.” And again in verse 20. So it seems the things in the first part were not when they in a church assembly but beginning with verse 18, he IS addressing public worship. This is consistent with Paul’s teaching in 14:34.

what about Miriam? didn't she prophesy publically?

 

[Beckworth]

Jesus did not forbid women preaching. What is clear from the scriptures is that there is an authority structure in the church. The modern idea of every married woman being automatically a pastor is not biblical. Neither is the idea of a pastor being a one man band. The modern church is little like the Biblical pattern, which is one reason for so many problems being overlooked.

Church government is by elders, who are male, with various ministries that should be contributing to teaching, preaching and ministerig to the needs of the people. Women for sure can preach and teach, but only if they are in submission to their husbands and church leadership.

A good example of this is Joyce Meyer. She ministers mostly to women, which Paul said was correct. She is in submission to her husband, who she obviously greatly respects. There are other women preachers who make my blood run cold. One or two that I know of are witches. Avoid them like the plague. I know there are plenty of Joyce Meyer haters. I don't agree with everything she says. However, she meets a need that no male preacher could. And she has changed dramatically over the last 50 years or so since she started out.

My wife has been blessed by Joyce Meyer, as have countless other women and, I expect men.

There were many women in ministry in the Old testament. Miriam was a prophetess, Deborah was a judge. Esther was used mightily to deliver Israel. Hannah gave up her son Samuel to God's service.

Psalm 68:11
"The Lord announces the word, and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng......."

It is a mistake to try to apply the law of Moses or old Jewish law and practices to Christian’s who are living under the law of Christ. I cannot seek to justify a religious practice of any kind by the Old law of Moses; if I do, Paul says I “have fallen from Grace.” Galations 5:4. Psalm 68 is a beautiful Psalm but does not justify women preachers. Using examples and practices from the Old Testament which was written for and about the Jews, is not authority for anything today, because Paul says that that old law has been done away; Jesus nailed it to His cross. Col.2:14-16. We no longer live by that law; we live by the law of Christ. 1 Cor. 2:16, Paul says we have the “mind of Christ” in the New Testanent. So, yes, Christ has forbidden women from public preaching in 1 Cor. 14:34. She is NOT to usurp authority over a man 1 Timothy 2:12. Christ says (through Paul) “ I do NOT permit a woman to teach or have authority OVER a man.” It does not get any plainer than that! Of course, you have the choice of obeying God or pleasing yourself. Just be aware and willing to accept the consequences.

 

[Edify]

If someone is looking for a loophole, they can usually find one; and even back it up with scripture.

Indeed. One will create one to make restrictions & another to release restrictions. Both sides do it, & will argue & fight for it.

 

[Maori_Aussie]

Paul noted Junia as an Apostle in Romans 16:7
Junia (New Testament person) - Wikipedia

 

[GWH]

True, but "deaconess" means female deacon, so I am surprised it is not in the RSV of Rom.16:1.

 

[Edify]

It's a shame that many will judge from their armchair who have NEVER darkened a door of a storefront church or visited any of the smaller churches those 'qualified' men won't help because there's no money in it.

I've sat on a state board where I witnessed many "rich young ruler" types that were busy kissing the ring to get a well-established church. Most wouldn't try for a church until a senior pastor retires or dies.
You know who tried out for the churches nobody wanted? Those who weren't supposed to be pastors by some people's judgment. those "second-classed" preachers, some people call them.

Sure, any parrot can name female televangelists that aren't fit to run a church nursery, but don't see how they are outnumbered at least 50-1 by their male counterparts that aren't fit to run a weed eater on a church lawn.
I've been there.... worked my way up the ladder, & sat on church boards, sat on a state board, only to walk away from it all because it sickened me how political & hypercritical it was.

Yet, those who sit in those same types of churches today believe they have the right to judge sisters in the Kingdom without lifting a finger to help them. If they are as wrong as you say you ought to at least pray for them.

Excuse me for my ranting, but I am sorely offended by those who judge fellow believers rather than help them in their poor state of living while serving the Lord.

 

[Suze]

Correct! These women are the perfect example of how Christian women should be. No militant effort to usurp the authority God sets - but see how extremely influential their work was for God and His people!

I wish Christian women would just ignore what Satan and his minions are whispering into their ears and just keep our eyes on the Lord. When Christian women do that, they will always know they are just as valued as men and that our work for God is just as important to Him!


🚟

At my churches weekly Bible class , which is mixed men and women , women r not permitted to speak at all ( I don't go there any more but that's a different story ) . We open the meeting with a prayer and close it with a prayer , after the closing prayer women can talk about anything they like . For a while this irked me . Sometimes the brother leading the class would get something wrong or miss the point and I would b itching to interject . I'm so glad that I couldn't ! Thinking about it now it was my own pride that was stirred in me . Pride in thinking that I knew better than him or that I understood something better than he did . I would hate to embarrass anyone , male or female , and my own self by contending about scripture in front of an audience . Especially an audience that I had to face again and again in the weeks and months to come .

 

[Blain]

You know a little true story here is that in Texas an elderly women started a xsmall church that was near the base of the ku klux clan she was a women pastor and accepted gays and other sinners into her church to recieve salvation well they came to visit her and threatened to kill her if she didn't shut down her church she flat out told them you will have to walk through fire before you can get to me they gave her a day to shut it down and then they were coming for her well when they got back to their base it was ablaze in fire and they crapped themselves from fear

God was with this female pastor

 

[Beckworth]

what about Miriam? didn't she prophesy publically?

what about Miriam? didn't she prophesy publically?

It's a shame that many will judge from their armchair who have NEVER darkened a door of a storefront church or visited any of the smaller churches those 'qualified' men won't help because there's no money in it.

I've sat on a state board where I witnessed many "rich young ruler" types that were busy kissing the ring to get a well-established church. Most wouldn't try for a church until a senior pastor retires or dies.
You know who tried out for the churches nobody wanted? Those who weren't supposed to be pastors by some people's judgment. those "second-classed" preachers, some people call them.

Sure, any parrot can name female televangelists that aren't fit to run a church nursery, but don't see how they are outnumbered at least 50-1 by their male counterparts that aren't fit to run a weed eater on a church lawn.
I've been there.... worked my way up the ladder, & sat on church boards, sat on a state board, only to walk away from it all because it sickened me how political & hypercritical it was.

Yet, those who sit in those same types of churches today believe they have the right to judge sisters in the Kingdom without lifting a finger to help them. If they are as wrong as you say you ought to at least pray for them.

Excuse me for my ranting, but I am sorely offended by those who judge fellow believers rather than help them in their poor state of living while serving the Lord.

Opinions are fine—everyone has one; but this is a BIBLE discussion forum. So I would expect to discuss what the SCRIPTURE says. Jesus said we can’t judge “hearts” but we c
CAN judge people’s actions or “works”, especially if we are using what the Bible says to defend or defeat a work or action. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, Jesus and God encourage “contending for the faith.” Jude 3 and “giving an an answer” for all those who question your belief. 1 Peter 3:15.

 

[Blain]

Opinions are fine—everyone has one; but this is a BIBLE discussion forum. So I would expect to discuss what the SCRIPTURE says. Jesus said we can’t judge “hearts” but we c
CAN judge people’s actions or “works”, especially if we are using what the Bible says to defend or defeat a work or action. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, Jesus and God encourage “contending for the faith.” Jude 3 and “giving an an answer” for all those who question your belief. 1 Peter 3:15.

Well Miriam prophesying publically isn't an opinion I was asking because I am wondering what do we make of that? and I was wondering also about Deborah being a judge as well what do we make of that?