Loss of salvation???

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studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Yes, John 6:29 makes faith the first or primary work = joining them at conversion,
If they're already joined as Jesus, Paul, and Hebrews seem to tell us, then are they being joined at conversion or both simultaneously taking place at conversion because in reality they are joined?

And the more I ponder this thinking other Scriptures; I do think faith-obedience does grow qualitatively becoming stronger and more refined through testing.
 

studier

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Is a child in a high chair who takes food off the spoon being obedient? No!

Now? If the child is refusing to eat, and must be told to eat?
Then it becomes a matter of obedience, for that which should not require obedience.

Jews who were resisting and rebelling, had to (at that point) be told to believe.
Children in high chairs aside, the Scriptures I posted are clear IMO. In the truth derived from Scripture we both believe and obey the Gospel, as the Text specifically says, and as the Text further makes clear because genuine Faith in God is parallel with obedience to God and this parallelism is stated in the context of first believing in Jesus Christ as God commands.
 

studier

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(sigh) I was only speaking that in relation to salvation. Water baptism is a work that we do not have to accomplish for our salvation, with some out there claiming that it is a matter of obedience even though Paul never stated it as a requirement under the Gospel of Grace.

That is what I was saying. If one wants rewards, then there is indeed obedience to the instruction for spiritual living in good works, but only for reward, not salvational maintenance or retention.

MM
sigh in response. I understand you and the teaching about rewards. I came to disagree with that point of view.
 

BillyBob

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Dec 20, 2023
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It seems to me that we are asked to endure to the end!
The problem that I see, - how can we do that when we are imperfect, fallen creatures, prone to evil, etc...
I would hazard to guess that we can not live a single day and perform up to God's demands. If we could, this would certainly be a works based salvation – and one which could not be accomplished in our own strength.
That is precisely why we need a savior who has lived a perfect life and died for our sins.
Can we fall away to the point of no return? Certainly not!
Does this allow us to continue with a life of sin? Certainly not!

If we belong to God, we must fall on our knees each day and ask for forgiveness and grace to overcome our weakness.
I have reached this conclusion based on my own intelligence, which is artificial at best! That is AI at its finest!
 

studier

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Here's the thing about this question of "can we lose salvation", the simple fact is that if we can lose it then that makes it 100% dependent on us, on our behavior to obtain.
I understand how we can think this, but the "100% dependent on us" I don't completely agree with until if and when God may determine to let us walk away. IOW, He convicts, He disciplines, He encourages, He teaches, He trains, etc... but ultimately, He allows choice.

Some of us stand against TULIP and say God does not force or did not elect in eternity and force irresistibility in time - IOW He did not force choice to come to Him. Then we turn around and say He does force choice re: not leaving Him. Others say He honors choice either way and by grace provides more than is sufficient to help us make the right choice to honor Him and to continue to do so.

So, 100% choice in the end, yes, but to get there a tremendous amount of rejection has built up to get to 100%.

Once again, this is all well and good, but back to what the Text says re: endurance.
 

Cameron143

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I understand how we can think this, but the "100% dependent on us" I don't completely agree with until if and when God may determine to let us walk away. IOW, He convicts, He disciplines, He encourages, He teaches, He trains, etc... but ultimately, He allows choice.

Some of us stand against TULIP and say God does not force or did not elect in eternity and force irresistibility in time - IOW He did not force choice to come to Him. Then we turn around and say He does force choice re: not leaving Him. Others say He honors choice either way and by grace provides more than is sufficient to help us make the right choice to honor Him and to continue to do so.

So, 100% choice in the end, yes, but to get there a tremendous amount of rejection has built up to get to 100%.

Once again, this is all well and good, but back to what the Text says re: endurance.
Is there a command in scripture to endure?
 

studier

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It seems to me that we are asked to endure to the end!
The problem that I see, - how can we do that when we are imperfect, fallen creatures, prone to evil, etc...
I would hazard to guess that we can not live a single day and perform up to God's demands. If we could, this would certainly be a works based salvation – and one which could not be accomplished in our own strength.
That is precisely why we need a savior who has lived a perfect life and died for our sins.
Can we fall away to the point of no return? Certainly not!
Does this allow us to continue with a life of sin? Certainly not!

If we belong to God, we must fall on our knees each day and ask for forgiveness and grace to overcome our weakness.
I have reached this conclusion based on my own intelligence, which is artificial at best! That is AI at its finest!
With God all things are possible. We can do what we're commanded because we believe/obey and then begin to do as a child what He commands and enables us to do for our cooperative growth and Hid discipline. One issue in the time of writing was those who would deceive and divert the young and even the maturing away from Him. The same today and maybe even worse with all the distracting influences and global influences.

You say we can't fall away and then you say we must fall on our knees and ask forgiveness... The latter sounds like it's up to us.
 

Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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I understand how we can think this, but the "100% dependent on us" I don't completely agree with until if and when God may determine to let us walk away. IOW, He convicts, He disciplines, He encourages, He teaches, He trains, etc... but ultimately, He allows choice.
Eph 1:13~~
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

1 Cor 6:19~~
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

John 10:28~~
and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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What is your definition of the Gospel?
Foundationally, according to Paul, Jesus [is the] Christ (1Cor3:10-11).

But Paul made sure His evangelism especially when Gentiles were involved included reference to Psalm2 (Acts13:33) to clarify who and what "Christ" is and means. Between Acts13:33 and Psalm2 those Paul evangelized would know Jesus is YHWH's Anointed resurrected King who inherited the earth.

When we speak of God and of His Christ (Anointed), there is no way in truth and reality we get to pretend that we can believe in Him and who and what He is apart from bowing in submission to Him. Jesus is YHWH's Anointed Son to whom all knees shall bow, and no one comes to God but through Him to whom all bow.

That's the Foundation. Faith-Obedience is built into the Good News of God's Son re: whom God commanded belief in His name (1John3:23). From there we build.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Eph 1:13~~
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

1 Cor 6:19~~
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

John 10:28~~
and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Yes, I'm familiar with the verses and the arguments and but for a brief discussion re: genuine Faith, I'm going to stick with endurance for now.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Children in high chairs aside, the Scriptures I posted are clear IMO. In the truth derived from Scripture we both believe and obey the Gospel, as the Text specifically says, and as the Text further makes clear because genuine Faith in God is parallel with obedience to God and this parallelism is stated in the context of first believing in Jesus Christ as God commands.
Yup.... Just kick that child in the high chair aside when someone makes a vaild pont to explain how your literal approach is not
making sense.

If your eye offends you? Pluck it out.

Nothing like obedience!
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
1,664
783
113
Foundationally, according to Paul, Jesus [is the] Christ (1Cor3:10-11).

But Paul made sure His evangelism especially when Gentiles were involved included reference to Psalm2 (Acts13:33) to clarify who and what "Christ" is and means. Between Acts13:33 and Psalm2 those Paul evangelized would know Jesus is YHWH's Anointed resurrected King who inherited the earth.

When we speak of God and of His Christ (Anointed), there is no way in truth and reality we get to pretend that we can believe in Him and who and what He is apart from bowing in submission to Him. Jesus is YHWH's Anointed Son to whom all knees shall bow, and no one comes to God but through Him to whom all bow.

That's the Foundation. Faith-Obedience is built into the Good News of God's Son re: whom God commanded belief in His name (1John3:23). From there we build.
Ok.

You and I are seated next to each other on a plane going down. No possibility of survival. I noticed you had been reading a Bible.

We have 30 seconds to impact..........What must I do to be saved?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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There are many Scriptures in the NC Writings that speak of endurance just using the one word sometimes translated as "endurance". This "sometimes" is part of the problem when it comes to grasping how much endurance is discussed.

To begin, I'd point out that "abiding" as is commanded by our Lord for example in John15:4 is the word "menō" which means to remain, stay, persist, last (i.e. lasting), continue.

Then, "endure" is the word "hupomenō" which is the same word "menō" combined with a preposition ("hupo"). In Greek when a preposition is prefixed to a word, it typically intensifies the meaning of the word in some way. So, to remain becomes to endure. Lexically (BDAG Lexicon) hupomenō means:

1. to stay in a place beyond an expected point of time, remain/stay (behind), while others go away​
2. to maintain a belief or course of action in the face of opposition, stand one’s ground, hold out, endure (Il. et al.; remain instead of fleeing:​
3. to wait for with persistence, wait for τινὰ someone​
So, we can see the similarities and overlap with "menō" but we can see a nuanced difference, mainly in dealing with the factor of opposition.​
With this in mind, look again at NKJ Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Granted, as I've agreed before, there is context to this. But my other statement was that after studying endurance, I came back here and reasoned that our Lord and Savior was very likely laying down a principle that endurance was necessary for salvation.​
This is the first occurrence of endurance (hupomenō in verbal form - actually a substantival participle here) in the NC Text and it's clearly related to salvation setting aside for the moment the context of "salvation".​
Here's the last time hupomenō (in noun form - hupomonē) is used in the NC Text (I'm going to have to change the translation to maintain consistency): NKJ Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience endurance of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
  • The saints are God's Holy Ones and they are described or defined as those who keep/guard God's commandments and/namely the Faith [of] Jesus Christ.
    • There are some things to discuss here re: "and/namely" and [of] which I'll leave out for now so we can remain on point.
  • Look before and after Rev14:12 in context and we see in Rev14:11 those who take the mark and "bow in obeisance" (translated "worship") to the beast vs. Rev14:12 God's Holy Ones who keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ
    • The endurance of God's Holy Ones in context is their keeping/guarding... Rev14:12 and combined with Rev14:13 and on through the end of the chapter, their dying "in [the] Lord from now on". So they keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ even unto death.
      • Our NC Text speaks of the endurance of Jesus Christ. Consider how we are commanded to endure unto death as He did.
Some observations so far:
  • Please note the consistency between Matt10:22 and Rev14:12 - endure to the end and be saved.
    • Please note the consistency with the Lexical definition of hupomenō re: enduring in the face of opposition.
  • Please note the phrase "in [the] Lord in Rev14:13 and know it is what Jesus commands in John15:4 "abide/menō in Me" - so we're seeing both the "menō" and "hupomenō" concepts here in Rev14:12-13. And thus, we're seeing the relationship of how these 2 words are used.
  • Please note how I've translated "worship" in Rev14:11. The word is "proskuneō" and it means to "bow in obeisance". It's a word that speaks of reverent submission. It's the same word Jesus used 8x in 4 verses in John4:21-24 which is extreme emphasis as He's explaining who God is looking for - men who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth (vs. in Rev14:11 bowing in obeisance to the beast). So, we're seeing endurance in reverent submission to God.
So, I ask myself re: the necessity of endurance:
  • Does God ever make allowance for men who will break allegiance to Him and bow to His enemy(ies)?
    • Did He allow this without penalty in the Garden or did He issue a horrendous judgment for it?
This is not a doctrine that comes from looking at just a few verses. The noun form (hupomonē) is used 32x in the NC Text. The verbal forms are used another 17x.

Paul commanded the pursuit of endurance here (and elsewhere): NET 1 Timothy 6:11 But you, as a person dedicated to God, keep away from all that. Instead pursue righteousness, godliness, faithfulness, love, endurance, and gentleness.

If the endurance of God's Holy Ones is to keep God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ and not bow to God's enemies even unto death as may be required of them, then what is it for a Christian to not pursue endurance as God / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ commands of the Christian?

Please try to zero out the teaching of various traditions and just consider the Text. We can always revert back to the tradition(s) if that's where we find comfort. I for one find comfort and rest only in Christ in His Word of Truth. Whenever I had checks in my spirit that I was being taught something inaccurate, I sooner or later moved on. To each his own...
All those verses are descriptive, not prescriptive.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,497
776
113
There are many Scriptures in the NC Writings that speak of endurance just using the one word sometimes translated as "endurance". This "sometimes" is part of the problem when it comes to grasping how much endurance is discussed.

To begin, I'd point out that "abiding" as is commanded by our Lord for example in John15:4 is the word "menō" which means to remain, stay, persist, last (i.e. lasting), continue.

Then, "endure" is the word "hupomenō" which is the same word "menō" combined with a preposition ("hupo"). In Greek when a preposition is prefixed to a word, it typically intensifies the meaning of the word in some way. So, to remain becomes to endure. Lexically (BDAG Lexicon) hupomenō means:

1. to stay in a place beyond an expected point of time, remain/stay (behind), while others go away​
2. to maintain a belief or course of action in the face of opposition, stand one’s ground, hold out, endure (Il. et al.; remain instead of fleeing:​
3. to wait for with persistence, wait for τινὰ someone​
So, we can see the similarities and overlap with "menō" but we can see a nuanced difference, mainly in dealing with the factor of opposition.​
With this in mind, look again at NKJ Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Granted, as I've agreed before, there is context to this. But my other statement was that after studying endurance, I came back here and reasoned that our Lord and Savior was very likely laying down a principle that endurance was necessary for salvation.​
This is the first occurrence of endurance (hupomenō in verbal form - actually a substantival participle here) in the NC Text and it's clearly related to salvation setting aside for the moment the context of "salvation".​
Here's the last time hupomenō (in noun form - hupomonē) is used in the NC Text (I'm going to have to change the translation to maintain consistency): NKJ Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience endurance of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
  • The saints are God's Holy Ones and they are described or defined as those who keep/guard God's commandments and/namely the Faith [of] Jesus Christ.
    • There are some things to discuss here re: "and/namely" and [of] which I'll leave out for now so we can remain on point.
  • Look before and after Rev14:12 in context and we see in Rev14:11 those who take the mark and "bow in obeisance" (translated "worship") to the beast vs. Rev14:12 God's Holy Ones who keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ
    • The endurance of God's Holy Ones in context is their keeping/guarding... Rev14:12 and combined with Rev14:13 and on through the end of the chapter, their dying "in [the] Lord from now on". So they keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ even unto death.
      • Our NC Text speaks of the endurance of Jesus Christ. Consider how we are commanded to endure unto death as He did.
Some observations so far:
  • Please note the consistency between Matt10:22 and Rev14:12 - endure to the end and be saved.
    • Please note the consistency with the Lexical definition of hupomenō re: enduring in the face of opposition.
  • Please note the phrase "in [the] Lord in Rev14:13 and know it is what Jesus commands in John15:4 "abide/menō in Me" - so we're seeing both the "menō" and "hupomenō" concepts here in Rev14:12-13. And thus, we're seeing the relationship of how these 2 words are used.
  • Please note how I've translated "worship" in Rev14:11. The word is "proskuneō" and it means to "bow in obeisance". It's a word that speaks of reverent submission. It's the same word Jesus used 8x in 4 verses in John4:21-24 which is extreme emphasis as He's explaining who God is looking for - men who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth (vs. in Rev14:11 bowing in obeisance to the beast). So, we're seeing endurance in reverent submission to God.
So, I ask myself re: the necessity of endurance:
  • Does God ever make allowance for men who will break allegiance to Him and bow to His enemy(ies)?
    • Did He allow this without penalty in the Garden or did He issue a horrendous judgment for it?
This is not a doctrine that comes from looking at just a few verses. The noun form (hupomonē) is used 32x in the NC Text. The verbal forms are used another 17x.

Paul commanded the pursuit of endurance here (and elsewhere): NET 1 Timothy 6:11 But you, as a person dedicated to God, keep away from all that. Instead pursue righteousness, godliness, faithfulness, love, endurance, and gentleness.

If the endurance of God's Holy Ones is to keep God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ and not bow to God's enemies even unto death as may be required of them, then what is it for a Christian to not pursue endurance as God / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ commands of the Christian?

Please try to zero out the teaching of various traditions and just consider the Text. We can always revert back to the tradition(s) if that's where we find comfort. I for one find comfort and rest only in Christ in His Word of Truth. Whenever I had checks in my spirit that I was being taught something inaccurate, I sooner or later moved on. To each his own...
You are doing Biblical leap frog, jumping in and out of different dispensations.

It's weird that you can not sense something is not right.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,497
776
113
Ok.

You and I are seated next to each other on a plane going down. No possibility of survival. I noticed you had been reading a Bible.

We have 30 seconds to impact..........What must I do to be saved?

QUICK! Throw that candy wrapper in the trash!
Do some GOOD WORK quick!
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
2,895
647
113
Yup.... Just kick that child in the high chair aside when someone makes a vaild pont to explain how your literal approach is not
making sense.

If your eye offends you? Pluck it out.

Nothing like obedience!
Sorry, I don't understand you. Are you the child in the high chair?

If you're against obeying God which is ultimately loving God and one another, then we've got to get you back to highchair basics after 44 years of learning.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
2,895
647
113
Ok.

You and I are seated next to each other on a plane going down. No possibility of survival. I noticed you had been reading a Bible.

We have 30 seconds to impact..........What must I do to be saved?
Accept the foundation I just placed in front of you. There is a God and Creator of all, and He requires us to believe in / submit to His resurrected Son Jesus Christ - His Anointed King over everything.

NKJ Luke23:42-43 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Probably the simplest acknowledgement of belief in / submission to Lord Jesus as King I know of in Scripture. Very much in line with Paul's only foundation = Jesus [is the] Christ. Even the resurrection to life is inferred.