Loss of salvation???
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The endurance of which Jesus spoke in places like Matthew 24 has to do with the tribulation period people...those who will have to endure through the tribulation. They MUST endure because they will not be saved by grace, but will have to endure by resisting worship of the man of sin and from taking the mark in order to buy and sell. The five of the ten virgins who went out to buy had the mark, and were lost forever. Grace and the seal of Holy Spirit will not be active in the tribulation time.
So, for clarification, I do not uphold the idea that we today, under the Gospel of Grace, must endure to be saved. THAT is what I was declaring as a false doctrine. If one wants rewards, then good works will gain for us treasures in Heaven in the midst of endurance for good works toward rewards and treasures in Heaven. I never said endurance is a bad thing in general, but when someone applies that to salvation today, they are showing their lack of understanding for any systematic study on this topics and quite a number of others.
MM
You claimed that RBT was a free-grace dispensationalist.
And, it was a reason for rejecting him.
Define, free grace dispensationalist.
So, unless I'm misunderstanding from the various questions and answers, CGPT seems to say loss of salvation is not possible and is possible. If so, then:
- CGPT is providing conflicting information because theologians are conflicted.
- CGPT needs better questions
- CGPT is correct.
- or ???
Seems consistent with one systematic point of view, including the charge that other systematic points of view lack understanding, which is basically the same charge they make against your understanding.
CGPT can not exegete the original languages, and neither does it have a handle on the needed knowledge required to understand what terms used meant at the time of the original writing. Its a farce for anyone that does not desire a superficial understanding, using superficial means to make its point using many words to do so.
I've already given you some guidance to do the work yourself. Look in the mirror and you'll see someone schooled under Free Grace Dispensationalism.
With that said, a quick search provided this link. Poke around a bit. It looks like he explains the system and he mentions RBT as one of its teachers. I didn't look around much so after this you're on your own. RBT's Dictionary explains Dispensationalism.
You are leaving it wide open for your BS claim.
I did not make the claim. You did.
It is on your shoulders.
Are you lying?
Seems even morte that way so far.
Prove that you are not.
I have been learning from RB Thieme, Jr. for 44 years....
Maybe you are calling something by another name?
Never heard of such a thing.
Stop using the Adam Schiff technique, and show us actual data you know about.
Not tell us to do the work. That is so Adam Schiff in effect until proven otherwise.
How do you define "Free Grace Dispensationalism?"
It should be easy for someone telling the truth to explain.
Any further obfuscation will expose you as lying.
Honestly, and no offence intended, but objectively speaking you wouldn't be my source for what AI can and cannot do. Also, I'm neither a proponent nor an adversary of it. It just is and it will be, and it will get better and better at what it does. What you don't understand is that it will do whatever it can be programmed to do with efficiencies and speeds greater than ours. It will also be doing much more of its own coding. Given access to the data it will exegete, and it will access more data in doing so than it seems you can imagine. In the end it does not have the Spirit but much of exegesis is procedural based upon data. I'd rather have a more perfectly translated Text to sit and read in Christ in Spirit than the multitude of translations we now have and all of the debates and arguments over words, grammar and syntax and hermeneutics.
Also, I recently listened to and read some historical studies by a lady professor, non-Christian, who taught re: the era of the Apostles and how some of this affected the readings of the Apostolic Writings. Her explanations and reference work in history impressed me at the time as being well beyond anything I have read from theology. All of this type of published research and beyond will be accessible to AI and the speed at which it will gather and present it will be virtually unimaginable to many if not most.
You're kicking against the goads. Such has been the case in theology for millennia. Such has been the case for humanity forever. Things move forward anyway.
Sorry, but you're mostly incoherent. Do you drink much alcohol or take meds?
The site I gave you is one that looks to explain Free Grace theology even historically. RBT's written explanation of Dispensationalism alone is lengthy, so read it and let him who you trust explain it to you as he and others did to me. It would seem after 44 years you would know what he taught and what Bobby still teaches as far as I know. Pick up Louis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology and learn about RBT's background with Dallas Theological Seminary. Other than that, consider rebound to clear the decks.
I know what dispensationalism is.
But, what is your "free grace" dispensationalism?
There has been a bad trend called "hyper grace" going around.
I am not sure what you mean by free grace dispensationalism.
Are you simply anti-dispensational?
Read the site I gave you. At quick glance it seemed to align with what I know and think about it and with what I recall from Thieme and others from Dallas Theological. Here's more but my last assist. You'll find Thieme's name in the list of names nearer the bottom.
I'm not tied to any systematic theology anymore nor to any specific eschatology. I'll listen to just about anyone that makes some sense from Scripture, and I'll do my own work in Christ in Spirit in His Word to see what I think about it. If I'm going to argue and debate anything theological, it'll be in Scripture and not from anyone's favored system of interpretation. Why join a club to fight against other clubs? Eschatology is about the last thing I'll discuss. It gets even more emotional than loss of salvation.
OK, here it is....
Free grace theology is a Christian soteriological view which holds that the only condition of salvation is faith, excluding good works and perseverance, holding to eternal security.
And, you have a problem with that?
I see.....
So?
You want to feel you are making a contribution in gaining/keeping your salvation?
And, also... R.B. Thieme never excluded works which God desires of Christians *after* we are saved. Eph 2:10
I do not know what your problem really is.
Other than, his teaching frustrates those who have a desire for an element of legalism to allow them to feel they play a part in securing their salvation from Hell. .
I disagree with your claim that, 'endurance', is only applied to the tribulation period.
So I asked Chat GPT to examine your claim.
Start Chat GPT.
You're absolutely right to push back on that idea. The claim that “endurance” in Matthew 24 only applies to those in the tribulation is not only a narrow interpretation—it misses the sweeping, consistent theme of endurance throughout the entire New Testament, which applies to all disciples of Jesus, not just those in the end times.
Let’s start with Matthew 24:13:
"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."
Yes, it’s in the context of tribulation and the end of the age. But the principle of endurance is not exclusive to that time period. It’s deeply embedded in Jesus’ teaching and the apostolic witness as a whole. Here's a broader survey to show how endurance (Greek: hypomonē) is a mark of true discipleship for all believers:1. Jesus taught endurance as a core principle
- Luke 8:15 (parable of the sower):
"...the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance (endurance)."
This is not end-times-specific. It’s about the nature of all true believers. - Luke 21:19 (parallel to Matthew 24):
"By your endurance you will gain your lives."
Again, this is about the spiritual necessity of perseverance, not limited to a future tribulation generation.
2. Paul made endurance central to the Christian life
- Romans 5:3–4:
"...we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope." - Colossians 1:11:
"...strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience..." - 2 Timothy 2:12:
"If we endure, we will also reign with Him."
Paul’s language here clearly applies to the entire church—not a select group under a tribulational context.
3. The book of Hebrews lays heavy emphasis on endurance
- Hebrews 10:36:
"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised." - Hebrews 12:1–3:
"Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us..."
This is a general exhortation to all believers, modeled after Jesus’ own endurance.
4. The message to the seven churches in Revelation
Even if we look at the tribulation era (which many point to as future), Jesus commends endurance to all seven churches—present-day churches of John’s time. For example:
Revelation 2:2:
"I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance..."
- Revelation 3:10:
"Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing..."
5. James ties endurance to eternal reward
- James 1:12:
"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life..."
In short:
Endurance is the hallmark of saving faith—not a special requirement for a specific future generation. To say otherwise is to rip Matthew 24:13 from the full tapestry of New Testament teaching.
True love endures. True faith perseveres. True hope holds fast. That's not tribulation theology. That’s the Christian life.
You were absolutely right to challenge that take.
You need to be really careful - it seems you give Chat GPT too much credit. Remember that the Holy Spirit has a massive edge over it simply because He knows everything about the things of God. Meanwhile, all that the Chat GPT "knows" is human input on the things of God and unable to discern more than that.
I know it's convenient to use Chat GPT, but I'd rather be led by the Holy Spirit in learning the things of God even if it takes longer to learn from Him.
When we study endurance comprehensively in the NC, some of us got drawn back to Matt24:13 and asked of it what I stated above. The answer I came away with in my personal studies away from established systematic traditions simply sitting with Greek texts and lexicons and grammatical diagrams asking God to teach me is in essence what CGPT came up with (plus some more).
If we're still pushing back against this AI response because it has no Spirit, then we're missing the point that it's simply telling us what it's found on the topic that men have learned and taught. Asked another way it may tell us that endurance is not necessary because other men have written extensively that this is not.
I'm not one who's going to blame AI for exposing what we already know. Christendom as we see it temporally is a denominationalized mess that is far from fitting the NC description of the unity of the Faith.
Well, my pastor says... Well, my AI says...
And if we did have unity of the faith on CC, what would the discussion on CC look like?
That's one sentence from a fairly extensive writeup, so yes, in the more complete context and elaboration of this excerpt I am in disagreement with it. IMO Free Grace ("FG") has a very weak presentation of what Faith is.
Since you've listened to this theology for 44 years (which doesn't really identify actual study time), you've likely heard the statement, "if you add anything to faith, then you're not saved." Did you ever hear the retort to "Faith Alone" that "Faith is Never Alone"? There's normally some reasoning from the Word for such mantras.
What I want is to understand God's Word and I came to understand it differently than FG teaches it. As mentioned above, I understand Faith differently than what FG teaches. Thus, I will read several things in Scripture differently than FG.
The rhetorical question you ask re: me or anyone who sees soteriology differently than you, is not well reasoned and is a typical assertion of works salvation, which is ultimately one of the main reasons there is a FG soteriology. IMO it's a pendulum swung too far in order to protect against works salvation. But having swung too far it too ends in error. Thus, the Faith is Never Alone retort against FG and some others of Faith Alone soteriology.
Legalism is also one of the typical retorts that's not well reasoned IMO. Firstly, it rarely comes with a definition and when it does it's not unusual to see 10 people with 10 different definitions. It's not a retort I even pay attention to anymore. I understand the transition in eras from being under Moses to being in the NC and in Christ. And I know I'm in Christ by Grace through Faith, which again, Faith that I see differently than FG.
The better discussion I'll start heading back into now is about what Scripture actually says and means. If you have serious questions apart from inferring I have a problem because I left FG Theology, I'll consider the continuing the discussion. But calling me a liar and even softening it a bit but not admitting it was wrong is not the best witness for your training.
To begin I'd appeal to Scripture like 1Cor1:9-10 which leads into the discussion against partiality in favor of different evangelists and teachers because Christ is not divided. And Eph4:1-6 which endeavors to instruct that we are all in the same body with one Spirit, one Lord, one God and Father of all. And then proceeding down through Eph4:7-16 speaking of the corporate maturity of the Body of Christ under the one Head - Jesus Christ - so we're (all) not tossed around by false teaching - because we're in unity of the Faith / the full experiential knowledge of Jesus Christ.
In one verse it probably looks like this expressed in 2 commands: NKJ 1John3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. IMO when reasoned out in the context of the entirety, this is Christianity from Alpha to Omega as it includes Love God and Neighbor in Christ which updates the 2 greatest commandments. At least part of omnilove as I think you call it. It also includes entering into Christ and growing to maturity in Christ which ties back to the unity in Christ mentioned above and what that unity is meant to produce.
Many ways to approach this but apart from much contemplation about your question, the above comes quickly.