The Girl Before And After!

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seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
17,289
6,147
113
this is a sensitive topic & i don't want anyone thinking anyone here on CC is twisting this to badgering. they truly have become excuses because those are big events in women's lives. i'd be the 1st 1 to realize women's troubles having children. i have 3 sister-in-laws & i saw what they went thru. it's easy for a woman to say, "well, i had 3 kids & that can really do you in". there are women who will admit that's an excuse. so why is it that in certain cities, most of the women look great after having kids. San Diego, Tampa, Manhattan, Saratoga & Los Angeles is loaded with great looking women. don't believe all of them never had kids. i am not badgering women at all. you would think on a Christian site all adults can speak peacefully without disparagement or mockery like my post says.
I know you aren't going to listen to anything I have to say, and that's all right, because at this point, I'm just talking to the audience anyway.

I would like to tell a story.

Karlon's post has me thinking about the families I used to babysit for in junior high and high school -- two in particular, with the most stunning houses on the block.

One I will never forget.

The house was built over a ravine, and an entire part of the back of the house was an all-glass, two-story greenhouse. The master bedroom was on the top level with a room-length balcony looking out the back of the greenhouse, and a spiral staircase leading down to the greenhouse floor. It was designed to make the most of the view of the sunrise coming up over the ravine. I also remember a set of intricately carved doors that looked like lace cut out of wood, 'encased in glass on both sides, and imported directly from India.

In the other family I remember most, the parents were probably in their early 40's, and the husband was the son/heir/in-training to take over his father's manufacturing company, which was known all over the state. This man's father had designed the front of the factory building to look like a giant Cadillac, complete with an enormous replica of a hood ornament on top, just because he loved Cadillacs so much -- and because he had the money to do it.

This is the caliber of people I think about when I read about how the women in "San Diego, Tampa, Manhattan, Saratoga, and Los Angeles are loaded with great-looking women." These are NOT cities your average people live in. In most cases, you need an extremely above-average income to live there, and people with an above average income are also often above-average looking, due to having money for things average people don't have.

When I was in my babysitting prime, the "everyday" women would ask me to babysit when they had a date night with their husband or other necessary event they needed to attend.

The women with money needed a sitter for these things too -- but they also hired my brother and I for additional jobs such as trips to the tanning salon, a hair appointment (and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of women look better with treated hair, but it costs hundreds to thousands to maintain it professionally,) workouts at the gym...

I can remember "Claire" (not her real name,) and how beautiful she was -- but she also had a very expensive tan, very expensive frosted hair, and a very expensive wardrobe and accessories. Expensive clothing fits better and shows off the silhouette of the body in a much more flattering way, even when the outfit is modest.

My point is, the everyday women I worked for could not afford these luxuries, let alone a sitter to watch the kids while they went to enjoy them.

Maybe I'm just naive, but I honestly cannot understand anyone who doesn't seem to realize the huge difference this can make, and how unrealistic is seems to compare people of this caliber with your average, everyday person.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
17,289
6,147
113
your "high society" statement: yes, they think like me: TO ENCOURAGE & ASSIST! you are incorrect in that you think i don't understand people's problems you have twisted the topic. your assumptions are incorrect. i assumed i would get responses like what's here. just hold on for the clincher to all this. it's coming Monday. tell everyone else so they can see the posting!
Karlon, I actually do pray about these conversations because maybe I'm getting everything wrong.

I thinks it's wonderful that you help people, but your posts here make me terribly sad because they seem to exclude any understanding or inclusion of people who aren't millionaires.

Like I said, perhaps I am completely mistaken, and I will be waiting for your post on Monday.

God bless you.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
17,289
6,147
113
yes. it doesn't cost anything to exercise but it costs your health if you don't exercise. have you ever heard of this statement: "most people spend the first half of their lives gaining their wealth & the second half spending their wealth to gain their health"? i do understand people's sufferings. i assisted the elderly & handicapped for 37 years, have given to other poor people, i pray for the poor, i always ask anyone in the grocery store if they need help because they can't reach something on the top shelf, always offer to help someone is struggling, i open doors for strangers, l let people borrow money, i stop when someone is broke down, i tow people out of trouble, etc. a drummer friend of mine was 85 & still playing in a band & i would always help pack & load his drums. i've gone to hospitals & prayed for people. you don't need a trainer for exercising. it costs nothing to exercise, do it at home. your "high society" statement: yes, they think like me: TO ENCOURAGE & ASSIST! you are incorrect in that you think i don't understand people's problems you have twisted the topic. your assumptions are incorrect. i assumed i would get responses like what's here. just hold on for the clincher to all this. it's coming Monday. tell everyone else so they can see the posting!
Exercising "for free" isn't always as easy as it sounds.

Most of my adult life, my exercise was going for walks around the neighborhood.

One summer, God convicted me and told me to stop going, as the best time for me was at about 5 in the morning. I lived in an area with a lot of construction, and I just got this feeling that, especially since I always walked before the sun rose, it would be too easy for someone to toss me into a van and drive off without a trace.

Unfortunately, I've had to give up my neighborhood walks ever since. And I don't even live in a particularly bad area -- but the homeless issue has become so great (rumor has it the big cities are offering one-way bus tickets to send the homeless into other areas,) that it just isn't safe for a woman to walk here by herself.

I used to walk in a church parking lot across from a retirement home, but stopped when a woman from the retirement home was trying to go on a a walk there and got robbed -- in broad daylight. And this is near a very busy intersection (an SUV pulled up, a young girl ran up to this woman, ripped off any visible jewelry she was wearing, then hopped in the car and the driver took off.)

And so, I wound up forking out the money for a treadmill -- I hate it compared to my walks, but safety is obviously first priority.

Buying the means to exercise at home is not an option for all people -- quality treadmills are expensive, can pose dangers to pets and small children, and take up a large amount of space many don't have.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
5,290
1,713
113
If you are concerned about your future wife's future looks, take a look at her mother.
 

Suze

Active member
Mar 14, 2025
220
143
43
I have a couple of girlfriends who keep their weight up because they don't want any male attention , no they r not lesbians , they just want to b and stay single . I'm a bit sad that such a conversation as this is on a Christian site to b honest . God says : My ways are not your ways , My thoughts are not your thoughts . I'm really really glad about that ! 😬 .
 

Suze

Active member
Mar 14, 2025
220
143
43
I have a couple of girlfriends who keep their weight up because they don't want any male attention , no they r not lesbians , they just want to b and stay single . I'm a bit sad that such a conversation as this is on a Christian site to b honest . God says : My ways are not your ways , My thoughts are not your thoughts . I'm really really glad about that ! 😬 .
 

Suze

Active member
Mar 14, 2025
220
143
43
I had a few relationships , before I was saved and before I was married . Had my own place since I was 16 years old and found that men like my cooking . So I would cook for them and obviously eat it too . When I wasn't in a relationship , I ate only what I wanted to eat , which was usually much healthier than what I was cooking for others and also much less of it ! That's why I was always slimmer when I was single 🤪 . My husband and I love food , we r both in our late fifties and starting to feel it 😬 , I have a lot of health problems that revolve around pain and exhaustion so it's hard for me to keep the weight off , I'm doing ok but it's an effort . It's easy to b slim when u r healthy and active but no matter how fit u r , age and it's related problems , will get u in the end . Let's hope that we can all find partners that love us for what's on the inside because the outside does not stay the same 😒 no matter how hard u work at it . Think of all the good lookers u have ever seen , all the gorgeous actors and actresses . What did they end up looking like ? I always think of Rutger Hauer in Blade Runner , he's soooo gorgeous . I saw him as an old man and if that's what he ended up looking like then there really is no hope for the rest of us . Take a look at all the older people u c walking around . Do u think they were born looking like that ? No they were not , they were young and fit and beautiful in their day . We r decaying flesh , from the day we r born . The flesh profiteth nothing , it is the Spirit that quickeneth .
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
28,753
10,309
113
this is a sensitive topic & i don't want anyone thinking anyone here on CC is twisting this to badgering. they truly have become excuses because those are big events in women's lives. i'd be the 1st 1 to realize women's troubles having children. i have 3 sister-in-laws & i saw what they went thru. it's easy for a woman to say, "well, i had 3 kids & that can really do you in". there are women who will admit that's an excuse. so why is it that in certain cities, most of the women look great after having kids. San Diego, Tampa, Manhattan, Saratoga & Los Angeles is loaded with great looking women. don't believe all of them never had kids. i am not badgering women at all. you would think on a Christian site all adults can speak peacefully without disparagement or mockery like my post says.
Have you ever tried talking to the great looking women in those cities? They are always crabby because "I just ate a whole green bean and I feel SO bloated!"
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
28,753
10,309
113
There is no big deal, Karl. Some of us have answered. You just don't like the answer you were given, because it doesn't line up with you lofty opinion.
Yeah. He gets that a lot.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
28,753
10,309
113
I have a couple of girlfriends who keep their weight up because they don't want any male attention , no they r not lesbians , they just want to b and stay single . I'm a bit sad that such a conversation as this is on a Christian site to b honest . God says : My ways are not your ways , My thoughts are not your thoughts . I'm really really glad about that ! 😬 .
Deja view. The feeling you have seen this post before.

Actually it's not your fault. It's the forum's fault. That is the only reason I mention your double post, so you won't think you did it. Sometimes the forum hangs up. Then you see your post still in the editing box and hit post because you think it didn't work, and then you get two of the same post.

So it's not you, it's the forum. :cool:
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
28,753
10,309
113
just hold on for the clincher to all this. it's coming Monday. tell everyone else so they can see the posting!
Wait, what? Why are we sitting around waiting until monday?

If you have a great, ripping riposte reason for all women being able to stay in great shape no matter what their physical, emotional, medical or financial circumstances are, let's hear it now. Why wait until monday?
 

Daisy2

Active member
Jan 31, 2025
114
51
28
Karlon These are things you might not have considered.when comparing people from California to the rest of the USA.

  1. Climate and lifestyle influence behaviors. Northern states with long, harsh winters allot of people are inacrive indoors for 3-6 months depending on where you live unless you have a workout routine. Also age is another consideration as people get older slippng on ice turns to be a big factor in people leaving their homes Meanwhile southern states like California —with mild weather year-round—support an outdoor lifestyle, leading to higher participation in activities such as hiking, biking, and outdoor sports.

  2. Access to fitness is driven by income. The median household income in California is about $91,000, significantly higher than the national average of $75,000. Wealthier individuals are more likely to invest in personal trainers and high-end fitness programs. The fitness industry in California is valued at over $6 billion, showing high demand for premium wellness services.
  3. Surrogacy is a growing industry. California leads the U.S. in surrogacy births due to its surrogacy-friendly laws. According to the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, more than 4,000 babies are born annually via surrogacy in the U.S., with California accounting for a substantial percentage. Many women in this demographic do not experience pregnancy themselves, meaning they avoid the hormonal changes and physical recovery associated with childbirth.
  4. Nutrition varies by income level. Studies show that higher-income households allocate a larger portion of their grocery budgets to fresh produce, lean meats, and organic foods. In contrast, lower-income households spend a greater percentage on calorie-dense foods, such as processed carbohydrates and high-fat items. USDA data indicates that low-income communities have less access to fresh food options, contributing to dietary differences. (A surprising 25% of Americans claim they have never eaten a vegetable in their entire life! Among those who do eat vegetables, the average person only includes them in about one-third of their meals)

    Karlon, Have also considered that the high income areas in the usa also tend to have the most liberal churches?



 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
3,029
1,398
113
Karlon These are things you might not have considered.when comparing people from California to the rest of the USA.

  1. Climate and lifestyle influence behaviors. Northern states with long, harsh winters allot of people are inacrive indoors for 3-6 months depending on where you live unless you have a workout routine. Also age is another consideration as people get older slippng on ice turns to be a big factor in people leaving their homes Meanwhile southern states like California —with mild weather year-round—support an outdoor lifestyle, leading to higher participation in activities such as hiking, biking, and outdoor sports.

  2. Access to fitness is driven by income. The median household income in California is about $91,000, significantly higher than the national average of $75,000. Wealthier individuals are more likely to invest in personal trainers and high-end fitness programs. The fitness industry in California is valued at over $6 billion, showing high demand for premium wellness services.
  3. Surrogacy is a growing industry. California leads the U.S. in surrogacy births due to its surrogacy-friendly laws. According to the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, more than 4,000 babies are born annually via surrogacy in the U.S., with California accounting for a substantial percentage. Many women in this demographic do not experience pregnancy themselves, meaning they avoid the hormonal changes and physical recovery associated with childbirth.
  4. Nutrition varies by income level. Studies show that higher-income households allocate a larger portion of their grocery budgets to fresh produce, lean meats, and organic foods. In contrast, lower-income households spend a greater percentage on calorie-dense foods, such as processed carbohydrates and high-fat items. USDA data indicates that low-income communities have less access to fresh food options, contributing to dietary differences. (A surprising 25% of Americans claim they have never eaten a vegetable in their entire life! Among those who do eat vegetables, the average person only includes them in about one-third of their meals)

    Karlon, Have also considered that the high income areas in the usa also tend to have the most liberal churches? Daisy2, i will be honest with you, i haven't been attending steady church in too long because there aren't any solid "teaching preaching" pastors. we watch or listen to Rogers, Uceff, C. Stanley, Jeffres, Prince, Jeremiah, Macarthur, & a bunch of others. thanks you for your pleasant calmness, lack of accusations & professionalism. stay tuned because i am now going to start posting what i said i would on Monday.


1. yes, i have considered those factors. i've seen everything one can think of during my time taking care of people. so if people are stuck inside for 3 to 6 months, wouldn't you say that's a great reason to exercise if possible? 2. i assent to a portion of that. don't forget, there's always used equipment to purchase. 3. i am unfamiliar with this. thanks for teaching me that fact. 4. 1 of the top areas of preventive maintenance is eating. eat the good stuff now & you hardly will be visiting the doctor later. along with exercise , by course. lastly, i have some knowledge about liberal churches. this is quite off my topic but i see how psychologically, it can filter in to the wealthy lifestyle.
 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
3,029
1,398
113
THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!!! 1st, as many posts get twisted & turned around concerning subject matter, negating the true subject crux, i will be cogitating on a better "point on", simpler view . 2nd, i apologize if anyone thinks i elaborated too much in the past on my posts illustrating a wealthy high lifestyle. i have been poor when a teen, believe me on that. In view of that, lets all try to stay "point on" & answer more to the crux instead of traveling off on tangents. also, lets not make "statements of assumption" when we really don't know what another person is experiencing. lets stick with fact. SO, HERE IT IS, THE BEST FOR LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!: 1. I WAS BORN LEGALLY BLIND AND WITH MYOPIA. 2. MY PARENTS HAD 5 BOYS, NO GIRLS, AND WE WERE BEATEN SEVERLY, REAL BAD!!!!!. ALL THE NEIGHBORS KNEW IT AND BEYOND! AND WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GO OUT AND PLAY LIKE ALL THE OTHER KIDS. I WAS A POOR STUDENT IN GRADE AND HIGH SCHOOL BECAUSE OF MY POOR VISION AND I HAD A.D.D. ALSO. YOU MAY NOT KNOW IT BUT LEARNING IS 83% VISUAL. I SUBSEQUENTLY MOVED OUT OF MOM AND DAD'S HOUSE AND I WOKE UP TO LIFE!!!!!!!!!!! I BEGAN TO REALIZE THAT I CAN DO THIS OR THAT SO I STARTED BUYING BOOKS, PAMPHLETS, FLYERS & AND WHATEVER ELSE TO LEARN WHA I WANTED TO WORK AT. WHICH WAS LANDSCAPING. THE 1 THING MOM AND DAD LET US DO WAS TO PRACTICE OUR INSTRUMENTS: ME: DRUMS, BROTHERS: GUITARS. THEN LATER, I LEARNED ABOUT COINS AND ANTIQUES. I STARTED MY LANDSCAPE COMPANY WITH A HALF BROKEN 16" CRAFTSMAN MOWER AND BUILT UP FROM THERE. I STUDIED REAL HARD ON EVERYTHING TO GET WHERE I AM TODAY. SO IF A GUY CAN ACHIEVE GOALS LIKE ME WHO WAS BORN HANDICAPPED, CERTAINLY SOMEONE BORN WITHOUT HANDICAPS CAN ATTAIN GOALS EASIER THAN ME. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR TIME.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
28,753
10,309
113
THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!!! 1st, as many posts get twisted & turned around concerning subject matter, negating the true subject crux, i will be cogitating on a better "point on", simpler view . 2nd, i apologize if anyone thinks i elaborated too much in the past on my posts illustrating a wealthy high lifestyle. i have been poor when a teen, believe me on that. In view of that, lets all try to stay "point on" & answer more to the crux instead of traveling off on tangents. also, lets not make "statements of assumption" when we really don't know what another person is experiencing. lets stick with fact. SO, HERE IT IS, THE BEST FOR LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!: 1. I WAS BORN LEGALLY BLIND AND WITH MYOPIA. 2. MY PARENTS HAD 5 BOYS, NO GIRLS, AND WE WERE BEATEN SEVERLY, REAL BAD!!!!!. ALL THE NEIGHBORS KNEW IT AND BEYOND! AND WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GO OUT AND PLAY LIKE ALL THE OTHER KIDS. I WAS A POOR STUDENT IN GRADE AND HIGH SCHOOL BECAUSE OF MY POOR VISION AND I HAD A.D.D. ALSO. YOU MAY NOT KNOW IT BUT LEARNING IS 83% VISUAL. I SUBSEQUENTLY MOVED OUT OF MOM AND DAD'S HOUSE AND I WOKE UP TO LIFE!!!!!!!!!!! I BEGAN TO REALIZE THAT I CAN DO THIS OR THAT SO I STARTED BUYING BOOKS, PAMPHLETS, FLYERS & AND WHATEVER ELSE TO LEARN WHA I WANTED TO WORK AT. WHICH WAS LANDSCAPING. THE 1 THING MOM AND DAD LET US DO WAS TO PRACTICE OUR INSTRUMENTS: ME: DRUMS, BROTHERS: GUITARS. THEN LATER, I LEARNED ABOUT COINS AND ANTIQUES. I STARTED MY LANDSCAPE COMPANY WITH A HALF BROKEN 16" CRAFTSMAN MOWER AND BUILT UP FROM THERE. I STUDIED REAL HARD ON EVERYTHING TO GET WHERE I AM TODAY. SO IF A GUY CAN ACHIEVE GOALS LIKE ME WHO WAS BORN HANDICAPPED, CERTAINLY SOMEONE BORN WITHOUT HANDICAPS CAN ATTAIN GOALS EASIER THAN ME. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR TIME.
Talking about the tangents you don't want us to go off on... Nothing in this post has anything to do with the thread topic.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
28,753
10,309
113
Karlon These are things you might not have considered.when comparing people from California to the rest of the USA.

  1. Climate and lifestyle influence behaviors. Northern states with long, harsh winters allot of people are inacrive indoors for 3-6 months depending on where you live unless you have a workout routine. Also age is another consideration as people get older slippng on ice turns to be a big factor in people leaving their homes Meanwhile southern states like California —with mild weather year-round—support an outdoor lifestyle, leading to higher participation in activities such as hiking, biking, and outdoor sports.

  2. Access to fitness is driven by income. The median household income in California is about $91,000, significantly higher than the national average of $75,000. Wealthier individuals are more likely to invest in personal trainers and high-end fitness programs. The fitness industry in California is valued at over $6 billion, showing high demand for premium wellness services.
  3. Surrogacy is a growing industry. California leads the U.S. in surrogacy births due to its surrogacy-friendly laws. According to the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, more than 4,000 babies are born annually via surrogacy in the U.S., with California accounting for a substantial percentage. Many women in this demographic do not experience pregnancy themselves, meaning they avoid the hormonal changes and physical recovery associated with childbirth.
  4. Nutrition varies by income level. Studies show that higher-income households allocate a larger portion of their grocery budgets to fresh produce, lean meats, and organic foods. In contrast, lower-income households spend a greater percentage on calorie-dense foods, such as processed carbohydrates and high-fat items. USDA data indicates that low-income communities have less access to fresh food options, contributing to dietary differences. (A surprising 25% of Americans claim they have never eaten a vegetable in their entire life! Among those who do eat vegetables, the average person only includes them in about one-third of their meals)

    Karlon, Have also considered that the high income areas in the usa also tend to have the most liberal churches?



Well, first you are not wrong.

But it won't do any good. It never does. He is impervious to logic. We have tried facts and logic many times over the many cycles this same conversation has gone through over the years. It has never, ever, ever worked.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
28,753
10,309
113
THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!!! 1st, as many posts get twisted & turned around concerning subject matter, negating the true subject crux, i will be cogitating on a better "point on", simpler view . 2nd, i apologize if anyone thinks i elaborated too much in the past on my posts illustrating a wealthy high lifestyle. i have been poor when a teen, believe me on that. In view of that, lets all try to stay "point on" & answer more to the crux instead of traveling off on tangents. also, lets not make "statements of assumption" when we really don't know what another person is experiencing. lets stick with fact. SO, HERE IT IS, THE BEST FOR LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!: 1. I WAS BORN LEGALLY BLIND AND WITH MYOPIA. 2. MY PARENTS HAD 5 BOYS, NO GIRLS, AND WE WERE BEATEN SEVERLY, REAL BAD!!!!!. ALL THE NEIGHBORS KNEW IT AND BEYOND! AND WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GO OUT AND PLAY LIKE ALL THE OTHER KIDS. I WAS A POOR STUDENT IN GRADE AND HIGH SCHOOL BECAUSE OF MY POOR VISION AND I HAD A.D.D. ALSO. YOU MAY NOT KNOW IT BUT LEARNING IS 83% VISUAL. I SUBSEQUENTLY MOVED OUT OF MOM AND DAD'S HOUSE AND I WOKE UP TO LIFE!!!!!!!!!!! I BEGAN TO REALIZE THAT I CAN DO THIS OR THAT SO I STARTED BUYING BOOKS, PAMPHLETS, FLYERS & AND WHATEVER ELSE TO LEARN WHA I WANTED TO WORK AT. WHICH WAS LANDSCAPING. THE 1 THING MOM AND DAD LET US DO WAS TO PRACTICE OUR INSTRUMENTS: ME: DRUMS, BROTHERS: GUITARS. THEN LATER, I LEARNED ABOUT COINS AND ANTIQUES. I STARTED MY LANDSCAPE COMPANY WITH A HALF BROKEN 16" CRAFTSMAN MOWER AND BUILT UP FROM THERE. I STUDIED REAL HARD ON EVERYTHING TO GET WHERE I AM TODAY. SO IF A GUY CAN ACHIEVE GOALS LIKE ME WHO WAS BORN HANDICAPPED, CERTAINLY SOMEONE BORN WITHOUT HANDICAPS CAN ATTAIN GOALS EASIER THAN ME. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR TIME.
Wait a minute... You're legally blind?

In that case I got two little old questions...

1. What does it matter to you if girls gain weight if you can't see it? For that matter, what would it matter to you if your own wife gained weight? You can't see it.

2. How do you know about all those pretty girls in Los Angeles? Did you see them for yourself or is it something you just heard about?
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
28,753
10,309
113
All this talk about girls in Los Angeles doing all those things to stay pretty reminds me of a comedian I heard just a few days ago. She was talking about living in Los Angeles and how women there talk a lot more openly about plastic surgery.

She said ladies will come up to her and say, "oh your face looks so good! What do you use for fillers?"

"I use fudge. I put a little vanilla along my jawline, and the whole area above my eyes is rocky road."