Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Yes, but six or seven is on the young side of the stage of moral accountability and ability to understand GRFS.

Yes, it is. But we shouldn't forget that it is ultimately God who gives understanding (Col 1:9; 2Tim 2:7; Prov 2:6, etc.). Since He can raise the dead to life, then imparting understanding to the human heart should be no problem for God; for He is greater than our hearts (1Jn 3:20).

Well, arguments and disagreements on CC indicate that imparting understanding and love is a problem for God--
a problem He created by creating humans with MFW, so that His imparting of u&l is not irresistible or simply a
matter of programming automatons.

If you have never perceived yourself as being a HELPLESS, HOPELESS sinner in dire need of God RESCUING you by imparting LIFE to your dead soul, then I can only surmise that absent that kind of humility that you very likely think you brought something to the table that merits God's grace. God actually repaid you for having the smarts and good sense and piety and wisdom, etc. to come to the right decision. If you believe in your heart of hearts that your personal, "freewill" choice earned you God's favor -- that your choice triggered God's salvation -- then you're very likely in deep spiritual trouble.

 

[Rufus]

Again, the instruction re: the power inherent in God's revelation of Himself and of His Son is misunderstood by many, but not by all.

God's "revelation of Himself and of His Son" is not limited to the written word (Gospel). He also reveals himself and His Son existentially within his elect's souls by the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, it is the Spirit who imparts spiritual understanding to sinners. The Holy Spirit applies God's Word to a sinner's mind, heart and soul, making him humble and willing to embrace Gospel truth.

 

[GWH]

Yes, it is. But we shouldn't forget that it is ultimately God who gives understanding (Col 1:9; 2Tim 2:7; Prov 2:6, etc.). Since He can raise the dead to life, then imparting understanding to the human heart should be no problem for God; for He is greater than our hearts (1Jn 3:20).



If you have never perceived yourself as being a HELPLESS, HOPELESS sinner in dire need of God RESCUING you by imparting LIFE to your dead soul, then I can only surmise that absent that kind of humility that you very likely think you brought something to the table that merits God's grace. God actually repaid you for having the smarts and good sense and piety and wisdom, etc. to come to the right decision. If you believe in your heart of hearts that your personal, "freewill" choice earned you God's favor -- that your choice triggered God's salvation -- then you're very likely in deep spiritual trouble.

Not sure why a person as intelligent as you would say that the free choice of faith earns salvation when Paul did not teach that, as you surely know.

 

[studier]

God's "revelation of Himself and of His Son" is not limited to the written word (Gospel). He also reveals himself and His Son existentially within his elect's souls by the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, it is the Spirit who imparts spiritual understanding to sinners. The Holy Spirit applies God's Word to a sinner's mind, heart and soul, making him humble and willing to embrace Gospel truth.

Again, the instruction re: the power inherent in God's revelation of Himself and of His Son is misunderstood by many, but not by all.

 

[GWH]

God's "revelation of Himself and of His Son" is not limited to the written word (Gospel). He also reveals himself and His Son existentially within his elect's souls by the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, it is the Spirit who imparts spiritual understanding to sinners. The Holy Spirit applies God's Word to a sinner's mind, heart and soul, making him humble and willing to embrace Gospel truth.

So, because God loves every sinner, all souls will be saved, which might seem like a nice thought except it would make humanity a race of robots.

 

[Rufus]

Not sure why a person as intelligent as you would say that the free choice of faith earns salvation when Paul did not teach that, as you surely know.

But what Paul never said was sinners who are prisoners, captives and slaves to sin, the flesh, the world and the devil and who need to be set free by the Son and by the Truth have such a thing as "freewill". How does a sinner's will escape the clutches of a corrupt, wicked and deceitful heart? Yet, you FWs consistently imply that fresh, clean water (your will) can flow from a fountain of a polluted heart. You have fresh and salt water flowing from the same spring (Jas 3:11), and insist that the fresh water (your will) remains untouched, unpolluted and untainted by the salt water (the remainder of our faculties).

And how come the very obvious emphasis throughout scripture is God's sovereign choice of his people and not vice versa? Why aren't there numerous verses in the bible that teach that after a sinner chooses God, God reciprocates by choosing him back?

 

[Rufus]

So, because God loves every sinner, all souls will be saved, which might seem like a nice thought except it would make humanity a race of robots.

Was the Jewish, half-dead, helpless crime victim whom the Good Samaritan rescued a robot? Or when Lazarus responded to Jesus' command, "Lazarus, come forth!" also a robot? Or were the ancient Hebrews robots when God came down to rescue them from the clutches of Pharaoh?

And finally, if God loves every sinner on this planet w/o exception, how come God didn't give every sinner to Christ? And how come Christ didn't pray for all sinners w/o exception in John 17? And how come Jesus didn't show himself to the entire world after he rose from the dead?

 

[studier]

How does a sinner's will escape the clutches of a corrupt, wicked and deceitful heart?

He chooses to accept what God graciously provides: God's revelation of Himself and then God's revelation of His righteousness and His Son.

Some ascribe too much power to the flesh, but Paul explained the inner battle and how fallen man who does not reject God's revelation of Himself to all men has an inner man, mind, and will oriented towards God, while the flesh works to control his thoughts. Only Christ can free man from this imprisonment but even being imprisoned this inner battle rages providing a desire for the solution.

Again, the instruction re: the power inherent in God's revelation of Himself and of His Son is misunderstood by many, but not by all.

 

[In3dee]

Why does every Jew and Gentile in Christ being Israel and under one law, the Law of Christ, imply that all Jews and Gentiles who are outside of Christ must also be under one gospel law, even those who are impaired in some way so as not to be able to understand the gospel?

Emphasis mine. All who are outside of Christ are not under law. Correct?

 

[Rufus]

He chooses to accept what God graciously provides: God's revelation of Himself and then God's revelation of His righteousness and His Son.

Some ascribe too much power to the flesh, but Paul explained the inner battle and how fallen man who does not reject God's revelation of Himself to all men has an inner man, mind, and will oriented towards God, while the flesh works to control his thoughts. Only Christ can free man from this imprisonment but even being imprisoned this inner battle rages providing a desire for the solution.

Paul explained the "inner battle" of a believer (namely himself)! Non-believers do not experience such inner spiritual turmoil.

And how very odd...indeed exceedingly strange of God that He went before Israel to fight that nation's battles against the godless nations in the Land. You won't find one text in the bible that credits Israel for winning those battles in driving out their enemies. God's grace (i.e. power) was very effective toward his chosen people under the Old Covenant. Yet, when we come to the New Covenant the battle is in the hands of sinners since they...and they ALONE determine their eternal, spiritual destiny. They alone wield the sword and must choose to conquer death and win the victory of life.

 

[Rufus]

Emphasis mine. All who are outside of Christ are not under law. Correct?

All men are "under law" in one sense or another. The Jews were under the revealed, written code known as the Law of Moses; whereas Gentiles intuitively know the works of the Law since God imprinted those works on all men's hearts (see Roman 2.

 

[studier]

Paul explained the "inner battle" of a believer (namely himself)! Non-believers do not experience such inner spiritual turmoil.

As is clear, Paul looked back to his inner battle as a Jew who believed in God but was yet to accept Jesus as Christ, which he explains in thankfulness in Rom7:25 just before he summarizes the inner battle he's just explained. As he proceeds into Rom8 he explains the freedom in Christ and how flesh functions in its work to control thoughts. The way of thinking of the flesh is not the inner man, mind, will of man Paul had been describing within and wherein he wanted to serve God. The language in Rom7 and Rom8 on this matter is clear.

The remainder is a non-sequitur.

Again, the instruction re: the power inherent in God's revelation of Himself and of His Son is misunderstood by many, but not by all.

 

[Rufus]

As is clear, Paul looked back to his inner battle as a Jew who believed in God but was yet to accept Jesus as Christ, which he explains in thankfulness in Rom7:25 just before he summarizes the inner battle he's just explained. As he proceeds into Rom8 he explains the freedom in Christ and how flesh functions in its work to control thoughts. The way of thinking of the flesh is not the inner man, mind, will of man Paul had been describing within and wherein he wanted to serve God. The language in Rom7 and Rom8 on this matter is clear.

The remainder is a non-sequitur.

You conveniently ignore the verb tenses in Rom 7. If Paul was talking strictly about his past pre-conversion life, then why so many present tense verbs in the chapter, e.g. ....

v. 14 "I am unspiritual"
v.15 "I do not understand what I do"..."for what I want to do, I do not do"
v. 16. "and if I do what I don't want to do", etc., etc.?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You conveniently ignore the verb tenses in Rom 7. If Paul was talking strictly about his past pre-conversion life, then why so many present tense verbs in the chapter, e.g. ....

v. 14 "I am unspiritual"
v.15 "I do not understand what I do"..."for what I want to do, I do not do"
v. 16. "and if I do what I don't want to do", etc., etc.?

Present tense of those verbs don't matter because Paul wrote:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Then Paul continues in chapter 8 to explain in more detail:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those who claim they're Christian SHOULDN'T remain carnal - such people who remain in the flesh cannot please God. They are only kidding themselves if they do.

Paul continues....

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But IF the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

So if the Holy Spirit is in you, you don't keep sinning like the rest of world. The Holy Spirit actually empowers you to obey God, become godly like Jesus, overcome temptations and sin less and less as you continue in Christ.

Since we have the Holy Spirit we should choose to live according to Him. We really have no excuse to continue being carnal and living according to the flesh.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For IF you live according to the flesh you will die; but IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, IF indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

So check yourself! If you're a Christian, you can put to death the deeds of the body by the Holy Spirit. If you keep claiming that you can't help yourself and keep sinning, you're not letting the Holy Spirit work in You and might not actually belong to God.

Also notice how everything is worded, "IF' shows that God has not taken away our free will. We still get to choose to live by the Holy Spirit or not.

I know you won't receive what these Bible verses say, but I'm posting this for future readers who will receive them.


💒

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8:9 says it all. Including the fact that some simply do not belong to Jesus.

 

[studier]

You conveniently ignore the verb tenses in Rom 7. If Paul was talking strictly about his past pre-conversion life, then why so many present tense verbs in the chapter, e.g. ....

v. 14 "I am unspiritual"
v.15 "I do not understand what I do"..."for what I want to do, I do not do"
v. 16. "and if I do what I don't want to do", etc., etc.?

I'll answer this in a moment, but the issue that I'll remain focused on is that the flesh has a way of thinking that it works to assert. The flesh is not omnipotent.

The flesh is distinct from the inner man, the mind, the will as shown by the words Paul uses in Rom7-8. It asserts its way of thinking against the inner man, the mind, the will. In a man who has not rejected God's revelation of Himself, the battle rages in the inner man because he is able to choose to retain God in his knowledge because God's revelation of Himself and His Law doing its work in men is of God.

There are several reasons proposed and of course debated for the present tense in Rom7:15-25. A few:

• They are historical present tenses that make the past more vivid and brings the narrative to life. Such are also used elsewhere in the NT, and we use them today as we might draw ourselves back to a time and place and explain it as if we're there.
• Within these it's noted that all of these present tenses are speaking only about this life under law wherein this battle in the inner man is waged so these presents are providing a focus on this.
• Paul is speaking in rhetorical language and taking the place of all who live in this experience he has come to understand. One such rhetorical device some propose is called "prosopopeia". Another is the "Literary I".
• Another study I recall speaks of how these presents are at use in legal matters.

The point being, there are several ways this section of Rom7 can be viewed in styles that are and were used in literature. Those continuing to study Paul are seeing more and more how extensively he used rhetorical devices to get his point across to different cultures.

Again, the instruction re: the power inherent in God's revelation of Himself and of His Son is misunderstood by many, but not by all.

 

[GWH]

But what Paul never said was sinners who are prisoners, captives and slaves to sin, the flesh, the world and the devil and who need to be set free by the Son and by the Truth have such a thing as "freewill". How does a sinner's will escape the clutches of a corrupt, wicked and deceitful heart? Yet, you FWs consistently imply that fresh, clean water (your will) can flow from a fountain of a polluted heart. You have fresh and salt water flowing from the same spring (Jas 3:11), and insist that the fresh water (your will) remains untouched, unpolluted and untainted by the salt water (the remainder of our faculties).

And how come the very obvious emphasis throughout scripture is God's sovereign choice of his people and not vice versa? Why aren't there numerous verses in the bible that teach that after a sinner chooses God, God reciprocates by choosing him back?

Jesus taught free will when he said to repent or seek and when he lamented that Jerusalem was “unwilling”.
Paul assumed free will when he urged belief in Jesus as Messiah and Lord.

 

[GWH]

Was the Jewish, half-dead, helpless crime victim whom the Good Samaritan rescued a robot? Or when Lazarus responded to Jesus' command, "Lazarus, come forth!" also a robot? Or were the ancient Hebrews robots when God came down to rescue them from the clutches of Pharaoh?

And finally, if God loves every sinner on this planet w/o exception, how come God didn't give every sinner to Christ? And how come Christ didn't pray for all sinners w/o exception in John 17? And how come Jesus didn't show himself to the entire world after he rose from the dead?

God offers Christ to every sinner, but grace is not irresistible. Showing Jesus to the world is our job.

 

[Suze]

Man's depravity vs God's Grace

Dear Magenta , I love your inserts ? Is that what they r called ? I enjoy them very much but I have to tell u that I find them very hard to read , because of the fonts and the colours , maybe it's just my phone , has anyone else mentioned this to u , it makes me a bit sad that I can't always read them 😒 .

 

[GWH]

Dear Magenta , I love your inserts ? Is that what they r called ? I enjoy them very much but I have to tell u that I find them very hard to read , because of the fonts and the colours , maybe it's just my phone , has anyone else mentioned this to u , it makes me a bit sad that I can't always read them 😒 .

The pretty ladies make me glad but what makes me sad is that the texts are biased.