Understanding God’s election

[Kroogz]

Not everyone is convicted of sin. Trump said he hasn't sinned.

Forget Trump.

We can say yes or no.......The Holy Spirit never stops convicting/ convincing us of our sin.

You tell your home schooled kids this stuff?....."God might save you kids, You are totally depraved and will never have a choice. The Holy Spirit might convict you tomorrow or may never convict you."

@Cameron143 the Holy Spirit is ALWAYS convicting/convincing your kids. And they have the same privilege and opportunity at salvation that you have!

 

[Cameron143]

Forget Trump.

We can say yes or no.......The Holy Spirit never stops convicting/ convincing us of our sin.

You tell your home schooled kids this stuff?....."God might save you kids, You are totally depraved and will never have a choice. The Holy Spirit might convict you tomorrow or may never convict you."

@Cameron143 the Holy Spirit is ALWAYS convicting/convincing your kids. And they have the same privilege and opportunity at salvation that you have!

No, the Holy Spirit is not continuously convicting my children or anyone else. Your misunderstanding of the term world is the cause of your confusion. World is used in the passage to speak of all people groups; not every single person.

I tell my kids I believe they are children of promise, and that God will come to them at some point and save them.

 

[Kroogz]

No, the Holy Spirit is not continuously convicting my children or anyone else. Your misunderstanding of the term world is the cause of your confusion. World is used in the passage to speak of all people groups; not every single person.

I tell my kids I believe they are children of promise, and that God will come to them at some point and save them.

That's sad. My kids NEVER get a reprieve or time out for what God has done for them.


My Kids are part of this world. Sad that you don't believe that.

 

[lrs68]

IMO @lrs68 has a good point about the chronology of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. When YHWH says He will harden Pharaoh's heart He doesn't say He will start the process, He simply says He will do it. All YHWH could well be saying is that it will be done and from there the process is up to Him as the One who makes promises and searches hearts.

Chronology and sequence are largely a western concept of thinking. It's well known in the scholarly realm that there are structures and sequencing especially in OC Hebrew that are not simple to track.

We also read throughout that Exodus process that each time God would create a miracle and defeat Egypt Pharaoh would harden his heart. Then after a couple times we then read God hardening and permanently hardened his heart. So by the story itself Pharaoh hardened his heart before God did.

 

[Kroogz]

I tell my kids I believe they are children of promise, and that God will come to them at some point and save them.

So you lie to them. How do you know? They could be the non-elect for salvation.

It's easy......The Lord Jesus Christ died for the WORLD and we simply have to trust in Him for salvation.

Equal privilege, equal opportunity.

 

[Cameron143]

That's sad. My kids NEVER get a reprieve or time out for what God has done for them.


My Kids are part of this world. Sad that you don't believe that.

Telling children about the greatness of God is awesome. Telling them God is doing something for them when He is not is simply lying to them.

There is a real spiritual realm that God moves in. Without becoming a partaker of the divine nature, intimacy with God is impossible because that realm cannot accessed. Only God can grant access into that realm. Teaching kids, or anyone else, that salvation is less than what it truly is is what is genuinely sad.

 

[studier]

We also read throughout that Exodus process that each time God would create a miracle and defeat Egypt Pharaoh would harden his heart. Then after a couple times we then read God hardening and permanently hardened his heart. So by the story itself Pharaoh hardened his heart before God did.

There's also Ex1-3 and God knowing what Pharaoh is doing. It's not as if Pharaoh has some semblance of a righteous heart before God prior to Ex4:21.

 

[studier]

@Kroogz @Cameron143 interesting discussion indicating how one's soteriology works out in parental responsibility.

 

[Cameron143]

So you lie to them. How do you know? They could be the non-elect for salvation.

It's easy......The Lord Jesus Christ died for the WORLD and we simply have to trust in Him for salvation.

Equal privilege, equal opportunity.

I don't lie. I tell them exactly as I said...what I believe is true.

Does a Moslem child in Iran have the same opportunity as a child born to Christian parents? Did native Americans before Europeans came to America have the same opportunity as a European Protestant?

 

[Kroogz]

Telling them God is doing something for them when He is not is simply lying to them.

So, in that mentality......Don't be telling your kids......
Cameron143 said:
I tell my kids I believe they are children of promise, and that God will come to them at some point and save them.

 

[Cameron143]

So, in that mentality......Don't be telling your kids......
Cameron143 said:
I tell my kids I believe they are children of promise, and that God will come to them at some point and save them.

Why not? I haven't told them anything false. I do believe they are children of promise, and I do believe they will be saved.

 

[lrs68]

There's also Ex1-3 and God knowing what Pharaoh is doing. It's not as if Pharaoh has some semblance of a righteous heart before God prior to Ex4:21.

God knew what Pharaoh would do before He Spoke the Universe into existence. But we also know how Moses tells us the story and Pharaoh hardened his heart before God does it for him.

 

[Kroogz]

Why not? I haven't told them anything false. I do believe they are children of promise, and I do believe they will be saved.

You have told false hoods to your children.

They are responsible for their trust in Christ. You can believe they will be saved till the cows come home and they may not ever get saved..

They are on the same plane as you.......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved....

@Cameron143 We have the privilege and opportunity to express equal privilege and equal opportunity to ALL....Through the Spirit!


Every one of your Kids, family members, friends and ALL have the privilege and opportunity for His salvation.

 

[Magenta]

Why not? I haven't told them anything false. I do believe they are children of promise, and I do believe they will be saved.

Oh, I see telling people what you believe is now classified as lying to them? When did this snowflake definition come into effect?

 

[Kroogz]

Oh, I see telling people what you believe is now classified as lying to them? When did this snowflake definition come into effect?

Our children need to believe in the Lord Jesus for their salvation.

They are not just automatically saved because we are calvies.

 

[Cameron143]

You have told false hoods to your children.

They are responsible for their trust in Christ. You can believe they will be saved till the cows come home and they may not ever get saved..

They are on the same plane as you.......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved....

@Cameron143 We have the privilege and opportunity to express equal privilege and equal opportunity to ALL....Through the Spirit!


Every one of your Kids, family members, friends and ALL have the privilege and opportunity for His salvation.

My responsibility is to raise my kids in the fear and the admonition of the Lord. I do that according to Deuteronomy 6...we talk about the Bible when we rise up and lie down, when we sit in the house and walk by the way. It's my job to teach about God. It's God's job to save.
Try as you might, you will never save anyone. I don't waste my time trying. What I try to do, though, is see what God is doing and join Him in it.
All of my children have been instructed in the ways of the Lord. Some God has engaged with and wonderfully saved. Some have not been so engaged.
I'm not sure you know what it is to really fellowship with God and be led of Him. I'm not talking about simply doing the things the Bible instructs us to do. Rather, I'm referring to doing the things in the Bible as God is personally directing you. There is more to a relationship with God than you have come to know.

 

[Cameron143]

Our children need to believe in the Lord Jesus for their salvation.

They are not just automatically saved because we are calvies.

This is your personal bias. I never said my children would be saved, or that I know for sure they will be. All I have said is I believe they will be.
True enough they need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but they aren't going to until God first comes to them. Left to themselves they are dead in trespasses and sins, being dominated by Satan, and remain under the condemnation of God.

 

[PaulThomson]

Isa 48:7 Now ( עַתָּה ) they have been brought into being ( נִבְרְאוּ , niphal perfective), and not ( וְלֹא ) from the beginning ( מֵאָז ), when I first thought of them, but before the day ( וְלִפְנֵי־יוֹם ) that they happened; and not ( וְלֹא ) you heeded them ( שְׁמַעְתָּם . qal perfective) when I told you of them, so that you are not saying ( פֶּן־תֹּאמַר , qal imperfective ), "Behold ( הִנֵּה ), I knew them ( יְדַעְתִּין׃ )".
48:7 עַתָּה נִבְרְאוּ וְלֹא מֵאָז וְלִפְנֵי־יוֹם וְלֹא שְׁמַעְתָּם פֶּן־תֹּאמַר הִנֵּה יְדַעְתִּין׃

Now they have been brought into being (niphal perfective). And they were not brought into being immediately, but they were brought into being before the day they happened. And you did not heed them (qal perfective) when I announced them, so that you cannot now be saying (qal imperfective), "Behold, I knew them, that they would happen."

I would revise my translation and parphrase a little, reading this again.

Isa 48:7 Now ( עַתָּה ) they have been brought into being ( נִבְרְאוּ , niphal perfective), but not ( וְלֹא ) from the beginning ( מֵאָז ), when I first declared them,
But before the day ( וְלִפְנֵי־יוֹם ) that they happened; also not ( וְלֹא ) you heeded them ( שְׁמַעְתָּם . qal perfective) after I had told you of them, so that you are not saying ( פֶּן־תֹּאמַר , qal imperfective ), "Behold ( הִנֵּה ), I knew them ( יְדַעְתִּין׃ )".
48:7 עַתָּה נִבְרְאוּ וְלֹא מֵאָז וְלִפְנֵי־יוֹם וְלֹא שְׁמַעְתָּם פֶּן־תֹּאמַר הִנֵּה יְדַעְתִּין׃

Now they have been brought into being (niphal perfective).
And they were not brought into being immediately, but before the day they happened, you also did not heed them (qal perfective) after I had announced them, so that you cannot now be saying (qal imperfective), "Behold, I knew them, that they would happen."

 

[studier]

I would revise my translation and parphrase a little, reading this again.

Isa 48:7 Now ( עַתָּה ) they have been brought into being ( נִבְרְאוּ , niphal perfective), but not ( וְלֹא ) from the beginning ( מֵאָז ), when I first declared them,
But before the day ( וְלִפְנֵי־יוֹם ) that they happened; also not ( וְלֹא ) you heeded them ( שְׁמַעְתָּם . qal perfective) after I had told you of them, so that you are not saying ( פֶּן־תֹּאמַר , qal imperfective ), "Behold ( הִנֵּה ), I knew them ( יְדַעְתִּין׃ )".
48:7 עַתָּה נִבְרְאוּ וְלֹא מֵאָז וְלִפְנֵי־יוֹם וְלֹא שְׁמַעְתָּם פֶּן־תֹּאמַר הִנֵּה יְדַעְתִּין׃

Now they have been brought into being (niphal perfective).
And they were not brought into being immediately, but before the day they happened, you also did not heed them (qal perfective) after I had announced them, so that you cannot now be saying (qal imperfective), "Behold, I knew them, that they would happen."

I'd like to go through more of the proginOskO verses with you as we have time.

On another note, I read a post of yours regarding Rom3 where, as I recall, you resolved the no one seeking God issue by interpreting the verbs as continuous presents. I would agree and suggest that it goes a bit deeper from context. IOW it's not just a matter of being continuous, which is certainly part of it, but it's also, as God sees it, the imperfection - the break one law = breaking all laws - IOW from the view - the perspective - of perfect God and His Holy Law men practicing righteousness under Law need His Righteousness - so the quality and continuity of seeking is not as He ultimately wills. 3:9 begins this discussion of "under sin" which is also "under Law" (Rom6) and "in Law" Rom3:19 - the list of issues between 3:10-19 is from the Psalms where God is looking down at men under law (Divine perspective & Law perspective) - 3:20 caps it with "in His sight". Men are seeking but not as He would have it just as there are men of faith (already established in Rom) doing righteousness being blameless under Law, but He does not want sin & sacrifice and man's righteousness under Law is not what He desires. The solution begins immediately thereafter in Rom3:21.

 

[Magenta]

Acts 15 verses 10-11 Why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.