If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

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Jul 31, 2013
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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, on the basis of which (eph' hOi) all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If we assume that original sin is a thing, then Romans 5:13-14 would seem to be a lie. Original sin asserts that sin (the sin of Adam) is imputed to all, including those who lived between Adam and Moses. But Rom. 5:13-15 tells us that sin was not being imputed to anyone when there was no law, nevertheless all died when there was no law. So, the cause of their deaths cannot have been imputed sin, whether the sin of Adam or the sin/s of the person dying.
This text says that death for all Adam's progeny was imposed as a consequence of Adam's sin. It does not say Adam's sin was imputed to his progeny.

What does Paul mean by "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin? He means that they had not knowingly broken a law specifically given to them by God. And there were many such sinners before the law: sinners who acted without faith in God, but did not know of the specific divine expectations they were transgressing against.
Adam is a type of Christ, in that the consequence of Adam's sin (death/mortality/limited life spans) was placed upon all his progeny without their being imputed with Adam's own sin; and the consequences of Jesus' righteousness, His resurrection from the dead , is placed on all His progeny (believers), or perhaps all His siblings (mankind) without His own righteousness being imputed to us/them.


So how do others deal with Romans 5:13-15?
"nevertheless" death is assigned from Adam to today.

if we claim there is no sin for which one can be held to account, for which death is justly rewarded, we claim God is not righteous, even in the occasion of stillbirth and of animals other than humans - who do not commit sin in the way all of us humans who have lived even one day do.
 

Genez

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Okay. So we can agree then that "the former things are passed way" does not include all former things. So, what do you disagree with in my post #208 where I suggest that we do not usually use the language of Rev. 21:4 to make statements about the future in perpetuity?
What is the Greek tense and meaning for the words, "you have been saved," as found in Ephesians 2:8?


For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—


.......
 

PaulThomson

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"nevertheless" death is assigned from Adam to today.

if we claim there is no sin for which one can be held to account, for which death is justly rewarded, we claim God is not righteous, even in the occasion of stillbirth and of animals other than humans - who do not commit sin in the way all of us humans who have lived even one day do.
Physical death at the end of this life is not a punishment for our sins. It is a brake that God imposed on us to prevent us doing infinite damage to His world through us living an infinitely long life.
IMO there is one sin for which the second death is justly rewarded: rejecting truths that the Holy Spirit is confirming to us via our conscience. This is the only sin that will not be forgiven without repentance. It is the sin which blasphemes the Holy Spirit and makes Him a liar, of which every other sin is merely a symptom. Jesus paid for every sin including this one. But OMO this one is the one of which one must repent in order to be granted to participate in the first resurrection.
 
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Hebrews 13 verse 14~ This world is not our home; we are looking forward to our everlasting home in heaven. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain
:)
 

Genez

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Physical death at the end of this life is not a punishment for our sins. It is a brake that God imposed on us to prevent us doing infinite damage to His world through us living an infinitely long life.
It was so he could redeem us on the Cross without Jesus having to bear our sins for centuries.
The sooner we die physically? The less sins for Jesus to die for.

Then, when all done?
To live forever, totally redeemed and atoned for!
 

PaulThomson

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sawdust said:
So basically your theory has God bribing the saints to behave? "Eat from the tree or else?" So much for freedom.

He does not see it that way....

But, sadly. It is what it comes down to.
You kick and rail against this notion and yet scripture says -
The literal sense of the Greek -
Rev 22:14 Blessed (Μακάριοι) are the ones keeping on doing (οἱ ποιοῦντες, present active participle) the commandments of Him (τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ), in order that (ἵνα) to keep on being (ἔσται) the authority of them (ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν) onto the tree of life (ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς, epi + dative) and (καὶ) in/by the gates (τοῖς πυλῶσιν, dative) may enter in (εἰσέλθωσιν) into the city (εἰς τὴν πόλιν).

My English paraphrase of the sense of the Greek -
Blessed are those who keep on doing His commandments, in order that their authority over the tree of life continues to be theirs, and so that they may enter in by the gates of the city.

You call what the scriptures teach "super-legalism"? How does one keep on doing His commandments?

Col 2:6
Even as (Ὡς) therefore (οὖν) you received (παρελάβετε, aorist) the Christ Jesus the Lord, (τὸν Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον) in him ( ἐν αὐτῷ) keep on walking (περιπατεῖτε, present imperative)

Col 2:7 Having been rooted (ἐρριζωμένοι, perfect passive participle) and keeping on being built up (καὶ ἐποικοδομούμενοι, present participle) in him ( ἐν αὐτῷ), and keeping on being stablished (καὶ βεβαιούμενοι, present passive participle) in the faith (ἐν τῇ πίστει, feminine dative), just as (καθὼς) were taught (ἐδιδάχθητε, aorist), keeping on abounding (περισσεύοντες, present participle) in it (ἐν αὐτῇ , feminine dative) in/by thanksgiving (ἐν εὐχαριστίᾳ, en + dative).
Therefore, even as you received Christ Jesus the Lord keep on walking in/by means of Him, having been rooted and remaining rooted [in/by Christ], while continuing to be built up in/by [Christ], and while continuing to be established in the faith, just as you were taught, keep on abounding in [the faith] by means of thanksgiving.

And how did one receive Him? By grace through faith. Your attitude to ongoing walk of grace through faith that results in doing His will sounds like you ally with the hyper-grace dogma.
 

PaulThomson

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What is the Greek tense and meaning for the words, "you have been saved," as found in Ephesians 2:8?


For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—


.......
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι present second person plural of "to be" + perfect passive participle nominative plural masculine. i.e. you are + having been saved. It means you were saved in the past and can mean either 1. the effects of your being saved in the past are presently continuing, (cf. "I have been assaulted, so I am in a bit of pain") or 2. You were saved in the past, and if you have stopped being saved since then, you still have the possibility of being saved again in the future (cf. I have been to Australia and Singapore. I am not there now, but it is possible I may yet go again.)

The individuals in Paul's audience would need to decide which meaning applied to them
 
Jul 31, 2013
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Physical death at the end of this life is not a punishment for our sins
Sorry.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
(Romans 5:12)​
without sin there is no death.

you may not have realized, but that is exactly the hope of actual Christianity - an end to death that is the end of sin.
 
Jul 31, 2013
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It is a brake that God imposed on us to prevent us doing infinite damage to His world through us living an infinitely long life.
if your hypothetical infinitely long life was sinless, how would you be doing damage by your hypothetical sinlessness? why would God end it?

no sense.
no sense at all.
no historical sense whatsoever.

is this predictated on your nonsense insistence that God is completely ignorant as to whether we might sin or not?

you think death is a safety valve for God's supposed incompetence?

wow open theism is worse ideology than i had imagined. thanks for the enlightening
 

PaulThomson

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So basically your theory has God bribing the saints to behave? "Eat from the tree or else?" So much for freedom.

But our heavenly bodies won't be physical in the same sense as today, ie made from the elements of the earth. They will be like His glorious body made from the substance of "heaven" ie.spiritual bodies.

And you ask what the pull is for being rewarded with the King's garden and access to the Tree? Being known as the Lord's BFF (in a manner of speaking). You don't just get to walk around the city but you can enter the King's own Garden (Paradise Revelation 2:7) having the authority to do so. Only those who learn humility as Christ learned, will know the level of authority that can be granted which, is not suggesting they will have the same level of authority as Christ. The irony is, only those who don't do what is right because it is rewarded, will actually be rewarded with such authority. Their motive to repent and seek the higher "way" is simply because it is right and they seek the Lord for who He is, not what He gives. His glory is all that matters to them.

Psalm 73:25
Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You.


Further, I see Rev.22:14 showing access to the Tree as a privilege, not a necessity. I also see it confirming different levels of authority among believers. Just as the Garden of Eden didn't cover the whole Earth, I believe the Paradise of God is a special place within the whole City of God.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

As far as seeing scripture which contradicts? Well, we are all guilty of seeing or not seeing what we want, so I wouldn't rest on that as a defense if I was you. Just saying. :)
You seem to be desperately trying to justify your own preferred theology, without engaging with and understand the actual words God had written for us to read. You just run off to find English ranslations that sound like they agree witb you.

It sounds like you hold to a gnostic platonist model of life after death. How does your model of the nature of the afterlife differ from the gnostics and platonists? They despise the physical, and their afterlife was one free of physicality. But God made us physical and very good. He is going to resurrect our physical bodies and mitigate all the damage our misuse of them causes to them.

The text you cite, Revelation 22:14, you would bother to consult what God actually said in Greek, says -

Blessed are those who are keeping on doing His commandments (present participle), so that authority over the tree of life may keep on being (present infinitive) [theirs], and so that they might enter (aorist) through the gates into the city.

It is saying exactly what I am saying.
 

PaulThomson

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Sorry.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
(Romans 5:12)​
without sin there is no death.

you may not have realized, but that is exactly the hope of actual Christianity - an end to death that is the end of sin.
Rom 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man the sin [of Adam] entered into the world, and death through the sin [of Adam]; and so [through Adam's sin] death passed into all men, upon which all sinned:
5:12 Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι᾽ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον·

eph' hOi does not mean "because".
 

PaulThomson

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Sorry.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
(Romans 5:12)​
without sin there is no death.

you may not have realized, but that is exactly the hope of actual Christianity - an end to death that is the end of sin.
The hope of actual Christianity is a deeper and deeper growing communion with God.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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sawdust said:
So basically your theory has God bribing the saints to behave? "Eat from the tree or else?" So much for freedom.



You kick and rail against this notion and yet scripture says -
The literal sense of the Greek -
Rev 22:14 Blessed (Μακάριοι) are the ones keeping on doing (οἱ ποιοῦντες, present active participle) the commandments of Him (τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ), in order that (ἵνα) to keep on being (ἔσται) the authority of them (ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν) onto the tree of life (ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς, epi + dative) and (καὶ) in/by the gates (τοῖς πυλῶσιν, dative) may enter in (εἰσέλθωσιν) into the city (εἰς τὴν πόλιν).

My English paraphrase of the sense of the Greek -
Blessed are those who keep on doing His commandments, in order that their authority over the tree of life continues to be theirs, and so that they may enter in by the gates of the city.

You call what the scriptures teach "super-legalism"? How does one keep on doing His commandments?

Col 2:6
Even as (Ὡς) therefore (οὖν) you received (παρελάβετε, aorist) the Christ Jesus the Lord, (τὸν Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον) in him ( ἐν αὐτῷ) keep on walking (περιπατεῖτε, present imperative)

Col 2:7 Having been rooted (ἐρριζωμένοι, perfect passive participle) and keeping on being built up (καὶ ἐποικοδομούμενοι, present participle) in him ( ἐν αὐτῷ), and keeping on being stablished (καὶ βεβαιούμενοι, present passive participle) in the faith (ἐν τῇ πίστει, feminine dative), just as (καθὼς) were taught (ἐδιδάχθητε, aorist), keeping on abounding (περισσεύοντες, present participle) in it (ἐν αὐτῇ , feminine dative) in/by thanksgiving (ἐν εὐχαριστίᾳ, en + dative).
Therefore, even as you received Christ Jesus the Lord keep on walking in/by means of Him, having been rooted and remaining rooted [in/by Christ], while continuing to be built up in/by [Christ], and while continuing to be established in the faith, just as you were taught, keep on abounding in [the faith] by means of thanksgiving.

And how did one receive Him? By grace through faith. Your attitude to ongoing walk of grace through faith that results in doing His will sounds like you ally with the hyper-grace dogma.

Knowing what something says?
And, why it says it?
Are not always one and the same.

Besides, my pastor's teachings warned against exegetes who fail that test.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι present second person plural of "to be" + perfect passive participle nominative plural masculine. i.e. you are + having been saved. It means you were saved in the past and can mean either 1. the effects of your being saved in the past are presently continuing, (cf. "I have been assaulted, so I am in a bit of pain") or 2. You were saved in the past, and if you have stopped being saved since then, you still have the possibility of being saved again in the future (cf. I have been to Australia and Singapore. I am not there now, but it is possible I may yet go again.)

The individuals in Paul's audience would need to decide which meaning applied to them
There you go.

If you were a good exegetical teacher, you would not be so contradictory like you have been consistently.
I would feel sorry for your congregation if some decided to continue being seemingly well-informed and confused simultaneously.

I have patience.
I am secure with what I have come to believe.
It's you I wish to find out more about....
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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There you go.

If you were a good exegetical teacher, you would not be so contradictory like you have been consistently.
I would feel sorry for your congregation if some decided to continue being seemingly well-informed and confused simultaneously.

I have patience.
I am secure with what I have come to believe.
It's you I wish to find out more about....
What are you alleging is contradictory? You have a habit of merely making pejorative comments against things you don't like, but without explaining how they apply. Or often you make pejorative comments against the poster who says things ypu don't like , without explaining why their comments are not true to the text.
 

PaulThomson

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Knowing what something says?
And, why it says it?
Are not always one and the same.

Besides, my pastor's teachings warned against exegetes who fail that test.
Yes, you do seem to be some other man's mouthpiece. So, what do you believe is the correct answer to your test?
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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What are you alleging is contradictory? You have a habit of merely making pejorative comments against things you don't like, but without explaining how they apply. Or often you make pejorative comments against the poster who says things ypu don't like , without explaining why their comments are not true to the text.
You'll twist those too.
 

PaulThomson

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In plain English, please? Aeonous life.
aiOn , English aeon/eon is Greek for a period of time of indeterminate or unspecified duration. It does not mean primarily an endless period of time. Although an endless period of time is an aiOn, most aiOnas/ aeons are not endless.

There is a semantic rule that the range of an adjective formed from a noun cannot exceed the semantic scope of the noun which is its root. So, spidery, an adjective from spider, conveys a range of content that is less tham is contained in spider. It describes something that in some way is reminiscent of spiders in general, such as a haphazard meandering writing style. monstrous from monster, can mean huge or grotesque, which are characteristics of many monsters. aiOnios/aeonous is an adjective formed from aiOn/aeon. It is not a general feature of aiOnas/aeons that they are never-ending, so we should not force that meaning into the word. It means "of indeterminate or unspecified duration" or it may be used to refer to having some particular characteristic that pertains to a particular age, such as of the age to come, which is often in view in scripture. but is distinct from the other coming ages beyond th next one.

So. aiOnios zoE, is not never-ending life, but indefinitely long life, what I call aeonous life; or maybe the kind of life that pertains to the coming age, in which saints will live in unfettered fellowship with Christ on the present physical earth in resurrected physical bodies.
 

PaulThomson

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You'll twist those too.
Oh, come on, Genez. If I do twist those it will be in public and you can explain how I did so and win over the popular vote. But are you really going to go through the charade of pretending superior knowledge, but blaming me for your withholding it from everyone here.

Pro 25:14
Whoso boasts himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

Let's see what you've got.