How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?

[greenonions]

Jesus is sometimes called the Angel of the LORD, but not every angel is Jesus.

The Holy Spirit can give life, and speak words of life. The Holy Spirit deserves worship, but not angels. The angels can only repeat the words that the Holy Spirit speaks.

Revelation 19:10 (NIV) At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

I don't think angels can give life, but they can do a lot of things such as: accompany God to visit Abraham and then visit Sodom (Gen. 19:1), go up and down Jacob's ladder (Gen. 28:12), meet Jacob (Gen. 32:1), shut the mouths of lions (Dan. 6:22), speak to Joseph (Matt. 1:20, 24; 2:13, 19), attend to Jesus after his temptation (Matt. 4:11), harvest and separate the wicked from the righteous (Matt. 13:39, 49), gather the elect (Matt. 24:31), roll away the stone from Jesus' tomb and talk to the women (Matt. 28:2,5), speak to Zechariah (Luke 1:19), speak to Mary (Luke 1:26), speak to shepherds and praise God (Luke 2:10-14), carry a beggar who died to Abraham's side (Luke 16:22), strengthen Jesus in Gethsemane (Luke 22:43), tell Philip to go to the road to Gaza (Acts 8:26), speak to Cornelius (Acts 10:3), rescue Peter from prison (Acts 12:7-10), worship God (Rev. 5:11-12), hold back the four winds (Rev. 7:1), offer incense (Rev. 8:3), blow trumpets (Rev. 8-9), kill a third of mankind (Rev. 9:15), fight the dragon's angels (Rev. 12:7), give warnings and make announcements (Rev. 14), pour out bowls of wrath (Rev. 16), carry John away in the Spirit into a wilderness (Rev. 17:3)

Revelation 17:3 is an example where the angel works through the power of the Holy Spirit to bring John somewhere.

 

[GWH]

Jesus is sometimes called the Angel of the LORD, but not every angel is Jesus.

The Holy Spirit can give life, and speak words of life. The Holy Spirit deserves worship, but not angels. The angels can only repeat the words that the Holy Spirit speaks.

Revelation 19:10 (NIV) At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

I don't think angels can give life, but they can do a lot of things such as: accompany God to visit Abraham and then visit Sodom (Gen. 19:1), go up and down Jacob's ladder (Gen. 28:12), meet Jacob (Gen. 32:1), shut the mouths of lions (Dan. 6:22), speak to Joseph (Matt. 1:20, 24; 2:13, 19), attend to Jesus after his temptation (Matt. 4:11), harvest and separate the wicked from the righteous (Matt. 13:39, 49), gather the elect (Matt. 24:31), roll away the stone from Jesus' tomb and talk to the women (Matt. 28:2,5), speak to Zechariah (Luke 1:19), speak to Mary (Luke 1:26), speak to shepherds and praise God (Luke 2:10-14), carry a beggar who died to Abraham's side (Luke 16:22), strengthen Jesus in Gethsemane (Luke 22:43), tell Philip to go to the road to Gaza (Acts 8:26), speak to Cornelius (Acts 10:3), rescue Peter from prison (Acts 12:7-10), worship God (Rev. 5:11-12), hold back the four winds (Rev. 7:1), offer incense (Rev. 8:3), blow trumpets (Rev. 8-9), kill a third of mankind (Rev. 9:15), fight the dragon's angels (Rev. 12:7), give warnings and make announcements (Rev. 14), pour out bowls of wrath (Rev. 16), carry John away in the Spirit into a wilderness (Rev. 17:3)

Revelation 17:3 is an example where the angel works through the power of the Holy Spirit to bring John somewhere.

Re "The angels can only repeat the words that the Holy Spirit speaks": Yes, and perhaps they can only repeat the works that the HS does, which seems rather redundant, so--just as the HS was not fully revealed in the OT--maybe His being manifested in angels as well as indwelling saints was not fully revealed in the NT.

 

[GWH]

Well, the trouble with angels is as follows (which is now on our website in the Lesson on controversial issues):

It is rather difficult to jibe the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit (HS) in the Bible, so let us explore that question starting from Hebrews 1:14, “Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the HS described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17), the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)? I am aware that the word ‘angel’ simply means messenger, and that the Bible calls angels men in several places in the Bible, and I find references to either angels or the HS in the NT, but are there any places that describe them working together?

The main reason I wonder about angels is because 1TM 2:3-5 teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, probably addressing the gnostic religions of that day, which viewed angels as mediators between man and God. Thus, perhaps we should think of OT angels as akin to (or functioning in a way similar to) the Mosaic Sacrificial Law: The Law foreshadowed the Gospel, and the angels foreshadowed the Holy Spirit. The roles of angels and the HS are not very different, and the mediatory role of angels seems comparable with the problem of celebrating Christmas and Easter with Santa and the Bunny, because their personalities and roles compete with glorifying the person and work of Jesus. Why not credit the HS with helping souls in every way? I understand that the HS is the Comforter, so why are ministering angels needed? (It seems like too many cooks in the kitchen :^)

Part of the reason for considering this interpretation of Scripture is because there are some who say that angels work to impart God’s graces to us. Also, there are those who think that praying to the angels and devotion toward them is a good practice. Although there is Scripture supporting belief in angels, this opens up a can of worms about which God’s Word is vague. Do angels have moral free will and thus need God’s salvation, or are they robotic and thus viewable as mere extensions of God’s HS, so we should only glorify them with that understanding? I perceive that the hypothesis “angels should grow less as the HS is glorified in the church era” (between Acts and REV) is comparable to the person and role of John with regard to Jesus in JN 3:30, and so folks might consider whether the OT angels were actually manifestations of the HS described by souls before revelation per the NT that God is Triune.

Interpreting angelology in the OT in light of the NT following the examples of Jesus and Paul, angels can be viewed as preparing the way for the Gospel of Christ. The Law of Moses revealed our sinfulness, the Sacrificial System pointed to Christ’s atonement, some of the prophets revealed that God’s Plan of Salvation (POS) included the Gentiles, and angels may have manifested the HS. Thus, as John said with regard to Jesus in JN 3:30, and just as the NT superseded the OT per Hebrews 7-9, perhaps we should allow the angels to become less important as the Holy Spirit becomes greater, and wait until heaven to understand how angels fit into God’s POS, (along with other problematic passages in the Bible, such as baptism for the dead). It is not a matter of replacing the angels but of keeping them in their proper place. Like problematic gifts per 1CR 12:30-14:1, perhaps the role of messenger has ceased for angels and been replaced by the Holy Spirit.

This understanding is not taught explicitly in the NT, but there are the hints and implications that have been cited. Most scriptural statements about angels seem unclear, so it is better to celebrate the Holy Spirit, about whom much is clearly taught in the NT, while understand that Satan is the evil angel/spirit of evil, whom should be despised. Occam’s Razor is not a verse in the Bible, but affirming that the Holy Spirit may be the holy angels/spirits of the OT, who do God’s will because they ARE the one God perceived as diversified (whereas in truth He is Triune), is theologically simpler or applies the hermeneutical principle of interpreting the unclear passages by applying the more clear biblical teachings. In this way the role of the HS crowds out angels or makes them/their role superfluous
during the church era, so churches should not elevate/glorify angels.

As Easter approaches, the comparison of the competing roles of angels and the HS with celebrating Easter with the Bunny becomes more current, because the "personality" competes with glorifying the person and work of Jesus. (Eggs are not a problem, because they can symbolize new life in Christ.) I have pondered whether Christians should make a bigger deal of Easter than of Christmas, but I guess it would also become commercialized, so never mind.

 

[GWH]

As Easter approaches, the comparison of the competing roles of angels and the HS with celebrating Easter with the Bunny becomes more current, because the "personality" competes with glorifying the person and work of Jesus. (Eggs are not a problem, because they can symbolize new life in Christ.) I have pondered whether Christians should make a bigger deal of Easter than of Christmas, but I guess it would also become commercialized, so never mind.

Regarding the Easter story, per Luke two angels appeared to the women as they visited Jesus' open tomb (LK 24:4&23), but the HS (who had made Mary pregnant in 1:35 and revealed Jesus was Messiah to Simeon in 2:25-27) was not manifested until the day of Pentecost (ACTS 2:4). (Angels announced the birth of Jesus to the shepherds in LK 2:9-15.)

However, per John no angels were mentioned outside the tomb, but Mary saw two angels seated where Jesus' body had been, who asked her why she was crying (JN 20:11-13). Then that same evening Jesus appeared to the disciples where they were meeting and breathed on them and said, "Receive the HS", who had been foretold in JN 14, 15 & 16.

Per Mark the women entered the tomb and saw an angel sitting on the right side, who said to go tell the disciples that Jesus was risen and would appear to them in Galilee. (The HS was mentioned in 1:8 as baptizing believers by Jesus.)

Per Matthew the two Marys went to the tomb and an angel of the Lord rolled back the stone and sat on it, inviting them to look inside and see that Jesus had risen, then go and tell the disciples Jesus was going ahead of them to Galilee. (The HS was mentioned as impregnating Mary in 1:18, baptizing believers in 3:11, descending on Jesus in 3:16, and leading Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted in 4:1).

I guess the mention of the angel who named Jesus in LK 2:21 and
the HS who moved Simeon in LK 2:25 is the closest they come to working together?

 

[GWH]

I understand the purpose of Revelation and the first three chapters,
but that leaves us to understand the imagery in the rest regarding the role of angels and the HS
.
In chapter four the imagery can be understood as deriving from OT passages:

Rev. 4:5 & 5:6 - The seven spirits of God are identified as the spirits mentioned in Isa. 11:2,: "The Spirit of the Lord (1), of wisdom (2), of understanding (3), of counsel (4), of might (5), of the knowledge (6) and fear of the Lord (7).

Rev. 4:6, 5:14 & 7:11 - The four living creatures are mentioned in Ezek. 4:6 and identified as referring to the cherubim
in Ezek. 9:3 &10:1-22, who resemble the seraphim mentioned in Isa. 6:2-4, who exclaimed "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty."

However, I am still baffled by the rest of Rev until chapter 21.

Rev. 6:1-14 - The six seals include: Rider with a bow on a white horse (v.1-2); Rider with a sword on a red horse (v.3-4);
Rider with scales on a black horse (v.5-6); Death on a pale horse followed by Hades (v.7-8); martyrs were given white robes (v.9-11);
an earthquake and heaven-shake caused people to seek shelter in caves (v.12-14).

Rev. 7:4-8 - The 144,000 represent those who are sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev. 8 & 9 - The opening of the 7th seal (in 8:1-2) began events accompanying six angels blowing trumpets: 1. fire burned a third of the earth; 2. a third of creatures in the sea died and ships were destroyed; 3. a third of fresh water springs and rivers became bitter;
4. a third of the sun, moon and stars turned dark; 5. locusts stung like scorpions those without the seal of God on their foreheads;
6. four angels were sent to kill a third of humanity.

Rev. 10 - There is a pause while the writer ate a little scroll.

Rev. 11:3-12 - Two witnesses prophesied for 1,260 days.

Rev. 11:15-19 - The seventh angel blew his trumpet, whereupon God's temple in heaven was revealed.

Rev. 12 - A woman bore a son, who went up to heaven, where war was waged between angels led by Michael and other
angels led by a dragon.

Rev. 13 - Two beasts were given power by the dragon to war against God's saints.

Rev. 14 - The Lamb is mentioned and six angels perform various tasks.

Rev. 15 & 16 - Seven more angels deliver seven final plagues by pouring out their bowls.

Rev. 17 & 18 - The punishment of Babylon is described.

Rev. 19 - God's victory and the Lamb's wedding are celebrated.

Rev. 20 - A thousand year imprisonment of Satan followed by his release and final consignment to hell is cited.

Is anyone able to explain chapters 8-20?
(No one has been able to do so up to this point in time, so take your time.)

Rev. 21 - The new Jerusalem is described.

Rev. 22 - The second coming of Jesus is anticipated.

I get these two chapters. Yay!

 

[Cameron143]

I understand the purpose of Revelation and the first three chapters,
but that leaves us to understand the imagery in the rest regarding the role of angels and the HS
.
In chapter four the imagery can be understood as deriving from OT passages:

Rev. 4:5 & 5:6 - The seven spirits of God are identified as the spirits mentioned in Isa. 11:2,: "The Spirit of the Lord (1), of wisdom (2), of understanding (3), of counsel (4), of might (5), of the knowledge (6) and fear of the Lord (7).

Rev. 4:6, 5:14 & 7:11 - The four living creatures are mentioned in Ezek. 4:6 and identified as referring to the cherubim
in Ezek. 9:3 &10:1-22, who resemble the seraphim mentioned in Isa. 6:2-4, who exclaimed "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty."

However, I am still baffled by the rest of Rev until chapter 21.

Rev. 6:1-14 - The six seals include: Rider with a bow on a white horse (v.1-2); Rider with a sword on a red horse (v.3-4);
Rider with scales on a black horse (v.5-6); Death on a pale horse followed by Hades (v.7-8); martyrs were given white robes (v.9-11);
an earthquake and heaven-shake caused people to seek shelter in caves (v.12-14).

Rev. 7:4-8 - The 144,000 represent those who are sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev. 8 & 9 - The opening of the 7th seal (in 8:1-2) began events accompanying six angels blowing trumpets: 1. fire burned a third of the earth; 2. a third of creatures in the sea died and ships were destroyed; 3. a third of fresh water springs and rivers became bitter;
4. a third of the sun, moon and stars turned dark; 5. locusts stung like scorpions those without the seal of God on their foreheads;
6. four angels were sent to kill a third of humanity.

Rev. 10 - There is a pause while the writer ate a little scroll.

Rev. 11:3-12 - Two witnesses prophesied for 1,260 days.

Rev. 11:15-19 - The seventh angel blew his trumpet, whereupon God's temple in heaven was revealed.

Rev. 12 - A woman bore a son, who went up to heaven, where war was waged between angels led by Michael and other
angels led by a dragon.

Rev. 13 - Two beasts were given power by the dragon to war against God's saints.

Rev. 14 - The Lamb is mentioned and six angels perform various tasks.

Rev. 15 & 16 - Seven more angels deliver seven final plagues by pouring out their bowls.

Rev. 17 & 18 - The punishment of Babylon is described.

Rev. 19 - God's victory and the Lamb's wedding are celebrated.

Rev. 20 - A thousand year imprisonment of Satan followed by his release and final consignment to hell is cited.

Is anyone able to explain chapters 8-20?
(No one has been able to do so up to this point in time, so take your time.)

Rev. 21 - The new Jerusalem is described.

Rev. 22 - The second coming of Jesus is anticipated.

I get these two chapters. Yay!

The reason so much is misunderstood is because you don't understand the overall breakdown of the book and it's overall purpose. I tried to explain this to you before but you weren't interested. You wanted minute details before understanding God's purpose or the design with which God structured the book.

 

[GWH]

The reason so much is misunderstood is because you don't understand the overall breakdown of the book and it's overall purpose. I tried to explain this to you before but you weren't interested. You wanted minute details before understanding God's purpose or the design with which God structured the book.

Hi Cam. Glad to see you again and I again thank you for the attempt to explain REV.
My perception was that I was learning well enough but you pooped out.

I decided the discussion of REV is appropriate on this thread about angels, so I invite you to try again if you want
and anyone else to chime in with insights.

 

[Cameron143]

Hi Cam. Glad to see you again and I again thank you for the attempt to explain REV.
My perception was that I was learning well enough but you pooped out.

I decided the discussion of REV is appropriate on this thread about angels, so I invite you to try again if you want
and anyone else to chime in with insights.

I didn't stop because you weren't learning, but because what you were learning wasn't set in any context and would only lead to further confusion. Allow me to demonstrate. You posted that you understand the purpose of the book of Revelation. Can you share the purpose as you understand it?

 

[GWH]

I didn't stop because you weren't learning, but because what you were learning wasn't set in any context and would only lead to further confusion. Allow me to demonstrate. You posted that you understand the purpose of the book of Revelation. Can you share the purpose as you understand it?

I understand the purpose of REV to be warning sinners of their need to repent and be saved to heaven per Rev. 1:3,
"Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it,
because the time [of the final judgment] is near."

 

[Cameron143]

I understand the purpose of REV to be warning sinners of their need to repent and be saved to heaven per Rev. 1:3,
"Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it,
because the time [of the final judgment] is near."

Which begs some questions:
...final judgment of what?
...how near is near?
...who is in view for this judgment?
Can you answer these questions?

 

[GWH]

Which begs some questions:
...final judgment of what?
...how near is near?
...who is in view for this judgment?
Can you answer these questions?

Judgment regarding final destiny whether heaven or hell.
All souls are in view.
When is “soon” which for me will be within twenty years.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The book of Revealtion is to us (ie, post 70AD) what the prophets were to Israel.

 

[Cameron143]

Judgment regarding final destiny whether heaven or hell.
All souls are in view.
When is “soon” which for me will be within twenty years.

Can you defend your answers from the book itself?

 

[GWH]

Can you defend your answers from the book itself?

Judgment regarding final destiny whether heaven or hell. (Rev. 20:10-15)
All souls are in view. (Rev. 20:11-15)
Near/when is “soon” which for me will be within twenty years. (Rev. 22:20)

 

[Cameron143]

Judgment regarding final destiny whether heaven or hell. (Rev. 20:10-15)
All souls are in view. (Rev. 20:11-15)
Near/when is “soon” which for me will be within twenty years. (Rev. 22:20)

All three of those deal with the succession of the covenant and the eternal estate. Revelation 1 is dealing with things that would be soon. In fact, three times in the first seven verses we read of the imminency of the things in view...shortly, at hand, and every eye seeing Him including those who pierced Him. Why don't you believe what is being described isn't speaking of the 1st century?

 

[GWH]

All three of those deal with the succession of the covenant and the eternal estate. Revelation 1 is dealing with things that would be soon. In fact, three times in the first seven verses we read of the imminency of the things in view...shortly, at hand, and every eye seeing Him including those who pierced Him. Why don't you believe what is being described isn't speaking of the 1st century?

I do not believe that "the time is near" (v.3) and "every eye will see him, including those who pierced him" (v.7a) do not speak of the
1st century because Jesus did not come again with everyone seeing him and mourning because of him.

 

[Cameron143]

I do not believe that "the time is near" (v.3) and "every eye will see him, including those who pierced him" (v.7a) do not speak of the
1st century because Jesus did not come again with everyone seeing him and mourning because of him.

Really? So nothing about 70AD? 2000 years later seems imminent? 3 scriptures speaking of a short time? But shortly and at hand mean over 2000 years? All means all, but shortly and at hand don't mean shortly and at hand.

Let's try this: what was at hand? What was coming shortly?

 

[tablet123]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

Angels do not take the place of the Holy Spirit for they cannot benefit a saint like the Holy Spirit.

But they help out the saints by way of protection and ministering.

It seems like God wants the angels to be involved with the saints.

If Lucifer did not rebel God would of never created people.

Since God has the plan to give salvation then all that is part of His kingdom will help whether angels or people which saints minister to saints.

The Spirit gives peace, love, joy, and a sound mind, which the angels cannot do.

We are saved by receiving the Spirit so then we have a relationship with God and the blood gets us there something the angels can never do.

Among other things the Spirit does that the angels cannot help us with.

But the angels have their function being a part of God's kingdom.

The truth is we do not need to have the angels help since we are with God but He wants them to be involved.

Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

The angels ministered unto the man Christ Jesus who is God manifest in flesh, the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and without sin that cannot change.

So He would not need the help of angels but God wants them to be involved.

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands.

Jesus is made better than the angels for His deity is God but the flesh, the man Christ Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels.

And since the angels are greater than flesh they minister and have a benefit there.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

The angels protect babies spiritually.

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The angels protected Israel from evil spirits.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

God cast Satan out of the 3rd heaven but the angels will defeat the devils and cast them to earth moving forward the plan of God to defeat this wicked world.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Jesus obtained a glorified body that is greater than the body of an angel.

When the saints receive their glorified body they will be greater than an angel.

Angels are servants of the saints.

 

[Dino246]

If Lucifer did not rebel God would of never created people.

On what scriptural foundation do you base this gem of an idea?

 

[GWH]

Really? So nothing about 70AD? 2000 years later seems imminent? 3 scriptures speaking of a short time? But shortly and at hand mean over 2000 years? All means all, but shortly and at hand don't mean shortly and at hand.

Let's try this: what was at hand? What was coming shortly?

2Pet. 3:8 answers your questions by indicating that 2,000 years is like 2 days with the Lord.
The second coming and judgment day were coming shortly (Heb. 9:28).