Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Inquisitor]

What verse in Mat 22 states "corporate election"? There's nothing in the parable that says that the king sent out his servants to gather the nations to his wedding feast. But they did go out to gather individuals from other ethnicities.

Jesus did not teach that many nations are called but few nations are chosen. Which of the few nations on this earth are chosen? You must know which nations, right?

Also, for your info, Jesus did not teach the the kingdom would be given to multiple nations; rather he said that the kingdom would be taken away from Israel and given to A NATION who would produce the fruit thereof (Mat 21:43). What nation would that be?

Matthew 22:3
And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

We have the first nation which is Israel; the chosen nation but they refused the invitation.

Matthew 22:9
Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.

One would assume then that this verse is telling us that all Gentile nations will receive the invitation.

You would be wrong in that assumption.

Please read the following verses.

Acts 16:6-7
They passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak
the word in Asia; and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus
did not permit them.

So during Paul's ministry to the Gentiles there were specific nations selected by God. For example, Paul
was directed to go to Macedonia. Nations to the east were permitted but forbidden to enter the nations of Asia.

So I win again Rufus!

 

[studier]

So I win again Rufus!

Low hanging fruit but still entertaining.

 

[Rufus]

Matthew 22:3
And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

We have the first nation which is Israel; the chosen nation but they refused the invitation.

Matthew 22:9
Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.

One would assume then that this verse is telling us that all Gentile nations will receive the invitation.

You would be wrong in that assumption.

Please read the following verses.

Acts 16:6-7
They passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak
the word in Asia; and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus
did not permit them.

So during Paul's ministry to the Gentiles there were specific nations selected by God. For example, Paul
was directed to go to Macedonia. Nations to the east were permitted but forbidden to enter the nations of Asia.

So I win again Rufus!

You might assume that, but I never did! You don't pay attention to what people write. I have frequently stated on this thread and in others as well that God does save ALL men w/o distinction. It's you FWs who think that Christ died for all men w/o exception, remember?

The megabytes of irony about the Acts passage you quote is that it clearly refutes the FWs' ASSUMPTION that God doesn't want anyone on the planet to perish! Yet, here we have a text that teaches that the Spirit of Christ would not permit them to go into Asia! How "politically/theologically incorrect" is that!? There are FWs here who see God as the EOE (Equal Opportunity Employer) kinda guy who treats all men equally because if he didn't He'd be vile, unjust monster.

So...Mr. Delusional Winner , can you rattle off who all the elect nations are? Or better yet, just address the passage I quoted earlier in which Jesus Jesus told Israel that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to another NATION!

Matt 21:43
43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
NKJV

Since you're so full of yourself, you should be able to tell me who the specific nation is that was given the Kingdom of God. Not only that but this nation, according to Jesus, will actually bear the fruits of the kingdom! Why don't you write a list for us of which nations on this planet are so faithful to God that they are actually bearing kingdom fruit.

And has any nation in the world (Vatican excluded) declared itself to officially be a Christian nation, has adopted God's holy laws for their own laws of their land, and have evicted all the pagans in their officially Christian land? Or do all these elect national entities still permit idolaters to reside and flourish in their lands with false religions of their own? Do these elect national entities follow in the footsteps of OC apostate Israel by allowing pagans to influence public policy and to corrupt believers in their lands? Is this NC dispensation just more of the same ol' OC economy?

Or since you think God's elect are all the nations in the world, then you should be able to find in scripture the covenant that God made with all the nations in the world, since historically God's relationship with his chosen people has been and is by covenant only. I would dearly love to see the conditions for this universal covenant of love that God has made with the entire world.

P.S. One other thing before I forget. You say above that in Jesus' parable national Israel refused the invitation. So...since that is the case, where does that leave all the individual Jews who did not refuse? What "nation" are they part of? Where and how do they fit in to your scheme of election of nations?

 

[PaulThomson]

Anytime any CHRISTIAN sins, most especially willful, presumption sins, he is doing what is of the devil. (Recall Jesus' sharp rebuke to Peter, calling him "Satan" when the apostle opposed Jesus' statement about his own impending death, cf. Mat 16:23?) In fact, that person at the time he sins is not loving God either! But the thrust of 1Jn 3 is not dealing with intermittent or occasional sin (such as 1Jn 1:8-10 is) , but rather sin in the context of the sanctified Christian lifestyle as a whole. This is why the Christian life is characterized by daily confession of sin to God and repentance. If anyone professes to be a believer, yet his life is characterized by ongoing sin, there is good reason to believe that his faith could well be spurious since he's likely a "bad tree" that cannot bear good fruit. After all, Jesus also said that "you shall know them by their fruits" (Mat 7:16).

Finally, Rom 3, to which you alluded to has nothing to do with 1Jn 3. Rom 3:9ff is Paul's indictment of the ungodly world; whereas 1Jn 3 is dealing with believers. You're comparing apples with oranges. And you talk about my logic!!!??? Pull that plank out of your own eye before presuming to point to it in anyone's else's.

Well, you need to be more careful with your writing, because you are writing contradictory statements. However, you don't acknowledge that you misspoke, you just claim both contradictory statements are true in their own way. This seems to be a particular trait of Calvinists. They speak contradictions and just paper over the chasm with a banner saying "mystery".

 

[studier]

Since you're so full of yourself

The great projector. Rufus doesn't like to be challenged. It's very personal.

 

[studier]

Well, you need to be more careful with your writing, because you are writing contradictory statements.

Consistency.

 

[Rufus]

Well, you need to be more careful with your writing, because you are writing contradictory statements. However, you don't acknowledge that you misspoke, you just claim both contradictory statements are true in their own way. This seems to be a particular trait of Calvinists. They speak contradictions and just paper over the chasm with a banner saying "mystery".

I didn't write anything contradictory. 1Jn3 describes the Christian life and why God's chosen people CANNOT live a sinful lifestyle. I can't help it that you can't read too swell and that you're also ignorant of the scriptures. God promised his chosen people Israel that a time would come when he would circumcise their hearts so that they would be able to LOVE him (Deut 30); and Jesus taught that whoever loves him will keep his commandments. Therefore, the apostle John was 100% correct. Those who have God's seed within them cannot live a sinful lifestyle.

Or again, using Peter as an example, Jesus told Peter that Satan had requested of God that he allow him to sift Peter as wheat. Satan won that battle; for indeed he succeeded in getting the apostle to deny Christ three times. Yet, he lost the war because God granted Peter repentance and was restored to Him. Therefore, Satan was powerless to win Peter's soul. The Good Shepherd did not let his sheep stray very far from him or to be devoured by the roaring lion.

Remove your blinders. Maybe one day, you'll understand God's Holy Word.

 

[Rufus]

The great projector. Rufus doesn't like to be challenged. It's very personal.

I see the one-liner peanut gallery is very active today. You must be running on fumes.

 

[studier]

I see the one-liner peanut gallery is very active today. You must be running on fumes.

This thread has been on fumes for about 9,000 posts, most of them likely yours.

 

[Rufus]

This thread has been on fumes for about 9,000 posts, most of them likely yours.

Over 10,000 is an awful lot of mileage to be propelled by an empty tank. But I'm not surprised that an empty suit would confuse an empty tank for a full one.

 

[PaulThomson]

I didn't write anything contradictory. 1Jn3 describes the Christian life and why God's chosen people CANNOT live a sinful lifestyle. I can't help it that you can't read too swell and that you're also ignorant of the scriptures. God promised his chosen people Israel that a time would come when he would circumcise their hearts so that they would be able to LOVE him (Deut 30); and Jesus taught that whoever loves him will keep his commandments. Therefore, the apostle John was 100% correct. Those who have God's seed within them cannot live a sinful lifestyle.

Or again, using Peter as an example, Jesus told Peter that Satan had requested of God that he allow him to sift Peter as wheat. Satan won that battle; for indeed he succeeded in getting the apostle to deny Christ three times. Yet, he lost the war because God granted Peter repentance and was restored to Him. Therefore, Satan was powerless to win Peter's soul. The Good Shepherd did not let his sheep stray very far from him or to be devoured by the roaring lion.

Remove your blinders. Maybe one day, you'll understand God's Holy Word.

So, are you agreeing with me that Romans is only stating that there is no one who keeps on doing good, keeps on understanding, and keeps on seeking after God.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that keeps on understanding, there is none that keeps on seeking after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that keeps on doing good, no, not one.

 

[studier]

Over 10,000 is an awful lot of mileage to be propelled by an empty tank. But I'm not surprised that an empty suit would confuse an empty tank for a full one.

More fumes from the perpetual generator.

The @PaulThomson identifications of the fallacies has become educational. The motte & bailey one recently was fun. You fume and he identifies the fallacies. It's like reading a textbook of examples and then instruction.

 

[Rufus]

So, are you agreeing with me that Romans is only stating that there is no one who keeps on doing good, keeps on understanding, and keeps on seeking after God.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that keeps on understanding, there is none that keeps on seeking after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that keeps on doing good, no, not one.

No, I don't agree. Where in the passage does it say what you're reading into it? And what does this universal indictment passage of the ungodly in Rom 3 have to do with believers in 1Jn3?

 

[Rufus]

More fumes from the perpetual generator.

The @PaulThomson identifications of the fallacies has become educational. The motte & bailey one recently was fun. You fume and he identifies the fallacies. It's like reading a textbook of examples and then instruction.

All the stinky low mileage fumes on this thread come from empty FW suits of darkness.

 

[studier]

All the stinky low mileage fumes on this thread come from empty FW suits of darkness.

Projection again especially with the first added adjective.

 

[Rufus]

Recently, I cited 1Cor 1:30 as a monogernistic text wherein Paul gave 100% of the credit to God for any believer being in Christ Jesus. Of course, PT tried to turn to this passage on its head, too, by claiming that it taught synergism, even though God's grace is 100% ineffectual since he doesn't literally rescue anyone as no sinner is actually helpless, and as such cannot ultimately be responsible for anyone's salvation. Another great companion passage in the same book also teaches monogernism to wit:

1 Cor 3:5-9
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe — as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but ONLY God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
NIV

So, FWs, this inquiring mind would like to know why didn't Paul give any credit whatsoever to the sinners who actually make the 100% effectual "freewill" choice to believe the gospel and repent of their sins? Or for that matter, why didn't Paul, as a fellow-worker of God, take any credit for saving souls?

Another interesting and noteworthy feature about this passage is that Paul is actually making an analogy between the Natural and Spiritual realms; for he uses the earthly/natural language of planting, watering and growth to express spiritual truth. And there are plenty of scriptures that teach that God is 100% in control of all the natural forces and elements of this world (Gen 26:12; Ps 65:9-13; 90:17; 104:14; 127:1-2; Mat 5:45; Act 14:17, etc, etc. Therefore, when any of you FWs try to mitigate the force of Paul's teaching with some lame objection, you must also destroy the integrity of the analogy because you would in essence be denying that God is in total control of the natural forces and elements of this world. You would be saying that God isn't the one who is ultimately keeping the world in food and water.

So...spin away, FWs. Spin away like a bad groove in a broken record...

 

[Magenta]

So, FWs, this inquiring mind would like to know why didn't Paul give any credit whatsoever to the sinners
who actually make the 100% effectual "freewill" choice to believe the gospel and repent of their sins?
Or for that matter, why didn't Paul, as a fellow-worker of God, take any credit for saving souls?

This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,
of whom I am the worst. Well, we see ourselves the same way unless you are a free willer, in which case,
you weren't such a bad guy, and your eyes did not need opening, and your ears did not need to be unstopped,
and your heart was not wicked, it was not beyond cure, and did not require circumcision, before you decided
to believe the foolishness of the gospel while suppressing the truth in unrighteousness as a slave to sin and
lover of darkness captive to the will of the devil... those things said of the natural man do not apply to free
willers in their enlightened minds, for they believe they were able to embrace the very things Scripture says
they were opposed to. They deny the Scriptural truths the Bible makes plain from beginning to end. Which is
truly astounding. Me, I give full credit to God. He drew me with loving kindness, just as His revealed written
Word promised. He revealed Himself to me just as His revealed written Word promised. He raised me to new
life just, as His revealed written Word attests... and He circumcised my heart, just as His revealed written Word
promised, because as surely as I live and breathe, I was not able to do those things for myself, and I sure as
heck know I was not worthy of the love He bestowed on me, or the forgiveness He gave. And having these
things revealed to me as His revealed written Word promises, I now, as I have before, recall Peter to mind,
who, when Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?” Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would
we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”

 

[Rufus]

This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,
of whom I am the worst. Well, we see ourselves the same way unless you are a free willer, in which case,
you weren't such a bad guy, and your eyes did not need opening, and your ears did not need to be unstopped,
and your heart was not wicked, it was not beyond cure, and did not require circumcision, before you decided
to believe the foolishness of the gospel while suppressing the truth in unrighteousness as a slave to sin and
lover of darkness captive to the will of the devil... those things said of the natural man do not apply to free
willers in their enlightened minds, for they believe they were able to embrace the very things Scripture says
they were opposed to. They deny the Scriptural truths the Bible makes plain from beginning to end. Which is
truly astounding. Me, I give full credit to God. He drew me with loving kindness, just as His revealed written
Word promised. He revealed Himself to me just as His revealed written Word promised. He raised me to new
life just, as His revealed written Word attests... and He circumcised my heart, just as His revealed written Word
promised, because as surely as I live and breathe, I was not able to do those things for myself, and I sure as
heck know I was not worthy of the love He bestowed on me, or the forgiveness He gave. And having these
things revealed to me as His revealed written Word promises, I now, as I have before, recall Peter to mind,
who, when Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?” Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would
we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”

I love reading your posts, sister; for your passion and love for the Lord shines through every one of them!

 

[studier]

why didn't Paul give any credit whatsoever to the sinners who actually make the 100% effectual "freewill" choice to believe the gospel and repent of their sins?

Besides argument from silence, back to the basics of context again, son. It's simply not what he's talking about. It's like asking why Moses didn't give any credit to man's volition in Gen1.

If you want to get to the Christian's volition in this context, then go to verses like 3:18, 21 where Paul is issuing commands to choose to reject or obey.

Or for that matter, why didn't Paul, as a fellow-worker of God, take any credit for saving souls?

Because just as there is no seed and no water and no soil and all the ways God has designed them to work together, Paul knows that apart from God there is no Gospel with its inherent power and there is no teaching and explaining in words provided by God and there is thus no growth apart from God.

But Paul is also speaking of credit - negative or positive - for God's fellow-workers in 3:8 on.

Paul also knows that apart from God's grace, he has no ministry let alone no life.


You manufacture turmoil.