Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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This is an assumption of man's makeup. There is only ONE with the capability to extinguish any one entirely, both body and soul, and that will be done via the lake of via.

I'm off to work. Meanwhile, I'll have to think up a designation to distinguish other willers from "free willers", since it seems that "Calvinists" has developed into such an objectionable designation.
What is objectionable is calling someone something they are not, and all the people who spew their
hatred of Calvin and TULIP onto those who are not Calvinists and do not promote TULIP. They have a
derangement syndrome and promote cookie-cutter Christianity. They also contradict themselves a lot.


You need not make up any new term. Stick with what the Bible teaches: there is the natural man, and
there is the spiritual man. Oh. Do you think those terms assumptions of man's make-up? Hmmm. Yes,
I see your predicament. Still, I would encourage you to stick with what the Bible teaches. You will be
hated for it, but you will be standing on the Rock, and not the shifting sands of humanistic theology.



Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Free willers contradict themselves, and what the Bible says, a lot ;)


Romans 8:9-10 ~ You are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Jeremiah 17:9 plus John 3:19-20 ~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? This is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Ex 31:1-7
31:1 Then the LORD said to Moses,
2 "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts — 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship. 6 Moreover, I have appointed Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, to help him. Also I have given skill to all the craftsmen to make everything I have commanded you: 7 the Tent of Meeting, the ark of the Testimony with the atonement cover on it, and all the other furnishings of the tent —
NIV

Mr. PT claimed synergism is taught throughout the bible, which is a lie. Those of us of the Reformed Tradition have always recognized and acknowledged that God calls his people to actually SERVE him in all kinds of different capacities. We have long recognized that God ordains not only his ends but the means to those ends, as well. Monogerism has nothing to do with the faith of believing servants. But it has everything to do with helpless DEAD, DEAF and BLIND unbelievers who cannot help themselves.

The above passage clearly teaches monogerism since God sovereignly appointed specific people to be highly gifted artistically. We can see from this passage that God acted UNILATERALLY! He did not seek the permission or cooperation of the people he sovereignly gifted to work on the Tent of Meeting and the Ark of the Testimony.
No Monergistic super-determinism here.
Or anywhere else as regards a personal relationship with the Redeemer, His call to repentance and offer of salvation.

[Jhn 7:17 NKJV] 17 "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or [whether] I speak on My own [authority].

[2Ch 7:14 KJV] 14 ***IF*** my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; ***THEN*** will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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No Monergistic super-determinism here.
Or anywhere else as regards a personal relationship with the Redeemer, His call to repentance and offer of salvation.

[Jhn 7:17 NKJV] 17 "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or [whether] I speak on My own [authority].

[2Ch 7:14 KJV] 14 ***IF*** my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; ***THEN*** will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
John7:17 IMO is extremely important, if not one of the key factors in whom God is seeking. It takes me right back to John4:21-26. So, the flow is God is seeking those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit & Truth > If any man wills to do God's will, then he will know re: the teaching..
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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You are wrong. The first resurrection, which ushers in the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ and His saints on this present earth, has to do with God's true Israel being vomited out by the planet and returning to the land that had in the previous 6000 years bereaved the nations

Ez. 36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.

15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

This is about the 1000 year reign occupation of the land by the resurrected saints. Verse 12 says people will stop dying in the land of Israel. This did not happen when the Jews returned from Babylon. This will happen during the 1000 year reign." Everything said in Ez. 36 is true of the Resurrected Israel during the 1000 year reign. Some aspects of the return from Babylon might appear to have partially fulfilled Ez. 36, but the return from Babylon does not fufill all the things prophesied. You are selecting the things that were fulfilled, and are skipping over the parts that do not, pretending that the entire chapter perfectly fits and is certainly about the return from the Babylonian captivity.

Based on your false claim that Ez. 36 is certainly about the return from Babylon, you then staple Ez. 37:1-14 to chapter 36, as if it is a continuation of that prophecy and is also not about the resurrection. It is a different prophesy, which clarifies to the Jews how chapter36 will be brought about. How will the land ofIsrael be repopulated with immortal exiles? By the Holy Spirit raising them out of the ground at the resurrection and transporting them to the land of Israel as delimited in Ez. 47:13-23.
First of all, v.12 doesn't teach what you say. The NIV reads:

Ezek 37:12
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

NIV

Or,

Ezek 37:12
12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.

ESV

Or

Ezek 37:12
12 "Therefore prophesy, and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD," Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel

NASB

Or

Ezek 37:12

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O my people, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Darby

Ezek 37 is a continuation of the previous chapter; for that chapter is also about the return to the land from their exile. Chapter 37 simply expands on the prophecy in chapter 36. And for your info, we are in the 1",000-year" reign of the kingdom. The general resurrection takes place only on the LAST DAY of this age, and your earthly kingdom is not on the last day. The Last Day is when Christ returns to RESTORE all things, which occurs when he recreates everything new!

Acts 3:21
21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God
to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
NIV

Moreover, where are the OT prophecies by OT prophets that talk about this 1,000-year earthly kingdom? Point me to just one such prophecy in the OT.

Furthermore, in that wild and crazy and insane system of Dispensationalism, there will also be flesh and blood occupants; yet, scripture teaches that "flesh and blood" CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God!

1 Cor 15:50
50 I declare to you, brothers,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
NIV

And this makes perfectly good sense since Christ's kingdom is NOT of this natural, earthly, ungodly world!

John 18:36
36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
NIV

Therefore, Dispensationalism is just as heretical as your false gospel is! Christ's kingdom is heavenly. It is the kingdom of a BETTER COUNTRY that Abraham and others sought after and longed for (Heb 11:6). The Kingdom of Christ consists of the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven in which only the righteous will dwell after they are raised from the dead.

And one other thing before I forget. You said the other day that Ezek 37 isn't about "spiritual revival"! Yet, that is precisely what it's about. Read the first six chapters of Acts some day, and you'll discover that there were literally many thousands of Jews, including the religious elite, who came to believe in Christ after Pentecost arrived. And we shouldn't be surprised at this since Christ actually prayed for the forgiveness of sinners who crucified Him (Lk 23:34). And we certainly see that prayer being answered by the Father in the Book of Acts!

Also, here are two more "little factoids" about Ezek 37 that you won't like.

Ezek 37:14
14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.'"

NIV

Talk about you being a day late and a dollar short! The Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus and fulfilled at Pentecost! Yet, you have it's fulfillment at the beginning of this mythical earthly, "1,000-year" kingdom? And is that when the Jews returned the land from their exile in Babylon? Your wonky interpretation still has the Jews in exile in Babylon! :rolleyes: And how many times does God have to put his Holy Spirit into his people!? The first time in this Age of the Gentiles wasn't good enough? The gift of the Holy Spirit didn't take the first time, so God has to send his Spirit again to indwell Jews for this earthly kingdom?

Also, as I pointed out earlier, there will be no laws or commandments or decrees in the eternal New Order since ONLY the GLORIFIED righteous will dwell in the New Jerusalem, and the Law of God was never made for the righteous but only for the wicked (1Tim 1:8-11). The only law that will govern all the righteous is the Law of Love, since love can do no wrong -- and love never fails!

And more huge problems are found in these verses:

Ezek 37:26a-c
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers... and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.
NIV

This "covenant of peace", in your eschatology, must be different from the eternal New Covenant. It can't be the eternal NC itself since that covenant was ratified at the Cross -- way before the "millennial" kingdom comes. So...are there two New Covenants? Do you know what the terms of this "covenant of peace" are? And what are the terms the Jews must fulfill?

Then we have this:

"...and I will put my sanctuary among them forever (26d).

The "sanctuary" that is promised to be among them "forever" cannot possibly be another physical temple, since the physical temple of the Old Covenant (a type of Christ) has been FOREVER replaced by Christ the antitype (Jn 2:19-21; Heb 9:1-12). (Typology is a one-way street; for the antitypes of the New Covernant never revert back to the weak, beggerarly, transitory types of the obsolete Old Covenant!) And by extension....Christ's Church since each member of his Church is in Christ and as such is a "living stone" to His Temple. of which Christ himself is the cornerstone (1Pet 1:5-6 ). The "sanctuary", therefore, that will be among God's people "forever" is none other than Christ himself and his Father. And, again, all this was inaugurated at Pentecost -- after the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ; and will finally be consummated on the LAST DAY when Christ returns (Rev 21:22).

It would be comical, if it weren't so sad, that you go to great lengths to twist and distort the prophecies in these two chapters that clearly predict that the exiled Jews in Babylon would one day return to their land. Instead, you have to go past this fulfilled prophecy and posit that the return to the land has to do with a different return to some fictional earthly kingdom. You do this because you don't like the implications to these two chapters -- that God does indeed act unilaterally. There are no conditions in either of these chapters to be fulfilled by the Jews. But the megabytes of irony with all your mental gymnastics that you perform on these chapters is that even if you were right, we find that God will act unilaterally in the New Eternal Order! There are a ton of first person pronouns in both these chapters, so there is no escaping the unconditional, unilateral nature of the promises stated therein. I have a very strong feeling you're not going to enjoy the New Order since God is going to be "forcing" his will upon all his servants.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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No Monergistic super-determinism here.
Or anywhere else as regards a personal relationship with the Redeemer, His call to repentance and offer of salvation.

[Jhn 7:17 NKJV] 17 "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or [whether] I speak on My own [authority].

[2Ch 7:14 KJV] 14 ***IF*** my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; ***THEN*** will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
None of these passages have anything to do with Ex 31. Your typical m.o. What part of Ex 31 that I quoted can't you understand?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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John7:17 IMO is extremely important, if not one of the key factors in whom God is seeking. It takes me right back to John4:21-26. So, the flow is God is seeking those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit & Truth > If any man wills to do God's will, then he will know re: the teaching..
Oh...so God is seeking "freewillers" who have freed themselves from the bondage to death, sin, the world and the devil. God doesn't have to rescue such people, as he did with the ancient Hebrews in the Exodus. Evolution is alive and well, I see. :rolleyes:
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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John7:17 IMO is extremely important, if not one of the key factors in whom God is seeking. It takes me right back to John4:21-26. So, the flow is God is seeking those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit & Truth > If any man wills to do God's will, then he will know re: the teaching..
So the next obvious question is...who are these people?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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You are wrong. The first resurrection, which ushers in the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ and His saints on this present earth, has to do with God's true Israel being extracted out by the earth planet-wide, and returning to the land that had in the previous 6000 years bereaved the nations
BTW, the "first resurrection" is spiritual in nature. If you have not been raised up with Chirst in this age, you will be living in very, very warm and unpleasant climes for all eternity. Below is a good article that discusses the "first resurrection".

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/first-and-second-resurrection
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Oh...so God is seeking "freewillers" who have freed themselves from the bondage to death, sin, the world and the devil. God doesn't have to rescue such people, as he did with the ancient Hebrews in the Exodus. Evolution is alive and well, I see. :rolleyes:
Jesus said what He said, God is seeking those who will bow in obedience to Him in Spirit and Truth and such Jews and Samaritans were in and around Israel at the time. All it took was a little work as a Prophet for some to recognize and believe in Him. Some men willed to do God's will.

Yes, Scripture is rough on your theology. Many of us understand this.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Jesus said what He said, God is seeking those who will bow in obedience to Him in Spirit and Truth and such Jews and Samaritans were in and around Israel at the time. All it took was a little work as a Prophet for some to recognize and believe in Him. Some men willed to do God's will.

Yes, Scripture is rough on your theology. Many of us understand this.
So was the woman at the well one such person? Before her encounter with Jesus? After? If so, what precipitated the change?
 
Jul 3, 2015
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This is an assumption of man's makeup.
“Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” John 3:6

When Paul speaks of the natural man and when he contrasts the natural man against the spiritual man,
are you claiming this is something Paul made up and nobody should believe it because it is a groundless
assumption, or... what? I cannot quite make it out exactly what you are trying to say. Except you think I am wrong.


Our faith should not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.

But for a free willer, their faith and hence their salvation rests on the wisdom they claim for themselves (as opposed to giving glory to God) in choosing to believe the right thing and make the right choice before their hearts of stone were circumcised, and before being indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God in being made alive in Christ, both which is claimed to transpire after they decide/choose to believe, and not before, which enables a person to believe. So their claim is essentially that they cured their own heart, whereas Scripture says the heart is beyond cure, which is why it needs to be replaced, and this is not a man-made assumption either, as it is plainly stated in the Bible.

With the heart one believes. The stony ground of the natural man's heart cannot bring forth good fruit according to Scripture and the very words of Jesus Christ, but again, this is ignored by the free willer. The natural man has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom and must precede belief... unless you are a free willer. The natural man is a slave to sin and a lover of darkness. He suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God (again, these are not assumptions but PLAINLY articulated in Scripture), but the free willer says this God hater decides of his own volition, while a slave to sin and captive to the will of the devil, to believe in and follow the one he hates. Jesus said it was impossible for man to save himself. Paul further clarifies the difference between flesh and spirit in Galatians (among other places)~ "For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other." But to the free willer, the man of the flesh is wholly on board with God already before being made alive in Christ and having his heart circumcised. On board to the point of generating beleif through his volition and in order to do this, too, they deny that faith is a gift. Even though again it is plainly stated in Scripture that faith is given.

Many confuse the spiritual with the natural. The free willers do it all the time. They ascribe to the latter what is true only of the former. They seem incapable of differentiating one from the other and are completely blind to the fact that Scripture has made a clear distinction.
 

Cameron143

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Jesus said what He said, God is seeking those who will bow in obedience to Him in Spirit and Truth and such Jews and Samaritans were in and around Israel at the time. All it took was a little work as a Prophet for some to recognize and believe in Him. Some men willed to do God's will.

Yes, Scripture is rough on your theology. Many of us understand this.
You made this derogatory statement concerning me. I was giving you opportunity to demonstrate how. Are you bearing false witness?